GozGram 1 - Hammurabi and The Code of Laws (100k)

[6thGenTexan]

I've got it but I'll need most of my 72hrs unless I can be shuffled down the line.

 

[grahamiam]

I've got it but I'll need most of my 72hrs unless I can be shuffled down the line.

grs, bugs? either of you inclined to swap positions with tex in the order?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I can take it now.

 

[grahamiam]

ok, i'll swap bugs and tex in the order. thanks

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Pre-flight – 3000 BC – Fire up Mapstat. Incas won’t trade for CB. Science isn’t at max, but going to 100% will just get us broke quicker.

I’m going to delay our settler for a few turns. Switch the settler to a curragh.

IBT – Curragh=>settler

1. 2950 BC - Drop science to 10%, since the result is the same regardless of where I put the slider.

3. 2850 BC – Our southern exploring warrior spots a dark blue frontier => Germany. India now has IW.

IBT – We meet a German spear.

4. 2800 BC – Of course we can’t buy anything from Bismark.

IBT – Incas start the Pyramids.

5. 2750 BC – Nada.

IBT – Settler=>curragh

6. 2710 BC – I head the settler along with a spear towards the SE.

2670 BC => 2630 BC – Nada

IBT – Get booted out of Inca lands.

9. 2590 BC – Nada

10. 2550 BC – Found Nineveh.

After Action - we’re down four techs on the rest of the known world.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/GG1-2550BC.zip

 

[grahamiam]

1. 2950 BC - Drop science to 10%, since the result is the same regardless of where I put the slider.

thanks for taking the save quickly bugs, but i have to disagree with dropping the research to 10%. i realize we weren't making up much but we wanted max till CoL, whether it's logical or not see, we're a little fanatical about our laws in this one (and it's one more obstacle to overcome )

no worries, next player will just need to correct that.

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
microbe
SirBugsy <- just played
grs <- UP
6thGenTexan <- on deck
grahamiam
gozpel

depending on when grs get's done, we'll see if swapping between tex and i makes the most sense.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

The problem is that we don't have much income producing population. At the time I dropped it we had exactly three people, and right now we have two, one in each city. You can see how tight the budget is. When we built the settler, we had 13G in the bank, that dropped to 7G while I moved the settler to the new location. I am as fanatical as the next guy. I just had reality slap me between the eyes. As our pop increases, the slider will be able to increase as well.

 

[microbe]

Bugsy, we are playing a variant, so as I understand we MUST keep max sci, even if it wastes money (and who knows it won't make a difference of one or two turns?)

Sure this is not a general good idea, but rules is rules..

BTW: also as I understand "max" means not bankrupcy. We still had 10g at end of my turns.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

BTW: also as I understand "max" means not bankrupcy. We still had 10g at end of my turns.

So let's see, we want to research as fast as we can and not go bankrupt. I think I walked the tightrope pretty fine there gents. Until I founded Nineveh on the last turn I had a -2gpt budget. If you think you can do better, I challenge you to take the last save and replay it yourself. The whole idea behind an SG is that you play to the best of your abilities and make the best decisions you can make. Knowing that I was going to go into the red fairly severely when the settler was built, I made a judgment call to preserve some capitol that was going to be thrown down a rat hole. When I switched the slider to 10% we were at 8G. I made 5G. We then lost 6G moving the settler to the new location. The other option was let us go bankrupt and let the computer decide which one of our assets to disband to pay for the budget deficit.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Further (yes, I'm about this) we have not lost one turn of research. Not ONE!

I suppose I could have posted a barebones turn log and not shared what was happening or given reasons why I did what I did. I suppose I could have gone into detail on what were the results of my calculations. I suppose I could have done nothing, left the slider where it was set, smoke some and watch which units got disbanded.

Let me know what version you would like next time.

 

[microbe]

Bugsy, I agree we should use our vision to not go for bankrupcy as I mentioned. I just wanted to point out that per my understanding, even if at the beginning 10% and 40% seem to be able to research the tech at the same time, we should still go for 40%, because we never know if the turns will drop when we grow and previous investment might make a difference (except that we are at the last couple of turns, in that case we of course can drop it). So I don't agree with the "we have not lost one turn of research" argument. I explicit asked this question.

In this particular case, from your description what you did seems to be right.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

So I don't agree with the "we have not lost one turn of research" argument. I explicit asked this question.

I know this to be absolute truth. Why? Because I checked. During the pre-flight when we had that huge amount of 10G. I moved the slider from 40% to see what it would take to get the next bump in science rate. The answer => 100% at -4gpt. That would drop our completion date by .....ready for this...

THREE TURNS!

So I ask you, how many turns did we lose by moving the slider to 10%? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that the answer would be... ZERO!

It is easily checked. Down load the save and see if increasing the science slider from 10% to 40% will increase our completion time. 30% of diddly squat is still diddly squat. I think the spirit of the variant was rigidly upheld.

 

[gozpel]

Easy now kids.

I understand what was going on in Bugsy's turns and I would've done nearly the same, but tried to keep research as high as possible, like 30-40%. Sometimes this doesn't work though and going bankrupt wouldn't solve anything

Just play on and try to keep it as high as possible. If there are circumstances where it isn't possible, just use your common sense. The thing with science it CAN make a difference by accumulating a couple of extra beakers. And writing would be so nice to have for trading opporturnities.

I'm no hard-ass when it comes to follow the rules to the smallest letter, I just advice we should try to do our best to follow them. If we bungle up a turn here and there, no big deal.

I had a look at the map and I guess we all see what town will be our first goal? The incense in Madras is being stored to bring wealth and happiness to our civilization in the future

Hopefully we can get a few bowmen before we learn CoL, or we have to re-assess our warmongering plans

 

[microbe]

I know this to be absolute truth. Why? Because I checked. During the pre-flight when we had that huge amount of 10G. I moved the slider from 40% to see what it would take to get the next bump in science rate. The answer => 100% at -4gpt. That would drop our completion date by .....ready for this...

THREE TURNS!

I'm not sure why you are so toughy. It makes discussion difficult but I'll try again.

First calm down and understand what I am saying.

I wasn't questioning the fact that you didn't _already_ make the research slower, but it could make it slower _in the end_.

I'll give you an example.

Assuming Writing costs 180 beakers, and we are making +10gpt. By 10% we'll get it in 50 turns. By 30% we'll get it in 50 turns too. Assuming max is 30% without a deficit.

Now assume in 20 turns we'll make 20gpt. If we just keep 10% thinking 30% wouldn't make a difference anyway, what would happen in 20 turns?

10% for the first 20 turns: we have 20 beakers invested, 160 to go. With 30% we can invest 6gpt in sci, making it 27 turns more. Totally 47 turns of research.

30% for the first 20 turns: we have 60 beakers invested, 120 to go. With 30% we need another 20 turns. Totally 40 turns of research.

See what I mean now?

I asked the question that "what if min and max research can get the tech at the same time?" The answer was still "max".

It's not my game and my understanding could be wrong, but let's not get personal OK?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I don't disagree with you. But remember, it is against SG etiquette to change things on the last turn. So if I had just gone and changed the slider back to the point where we would be at max, this whole conversation wouldn't have happened. If you reread my turn log I founded the city on the last turn.

As for getting personal, this whole conversation has been personal. Any lurkers want to back me up here?

 

[microbe]

I don't disagree with you. But remember, it is against SG etiquette to change things on the last turn. So if I had just gone and changed the slider back to the point where we would be at max, this whole conversation wouldn't have happened.

But you would still mention you changed the slider, wouldn't you? I sincerely hope so.

As for getting personal, this whole conversation has been personal. Any lurkers want to back me up here?

So you did get personal, and you think I caused it? I guess it's very clear where all the tention started to come. If anyone has doubts on my moves or points out I might have violated a rule, I'd be very happy to discuss with him, instead of claiming I am pissed off and shouting at him.

My intention was to make sure people have the same understanding and follow the same rules (not saying mine is necessarily correct). I've never had such a unpleasant discussion with anyone during my SGs. It was certainly a surprise to me.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

My apologies. I should have stepped back, took a deep breath and explained myself. I guess I was a little ticked off after trying very hard to try and follow the variant, and still keep our civ afloat. Then I took it wrong. I one point I was so ticked off I was going to tell the whole team where you could place your game and then go sulk in the corner like my daughter. So once again I apologize for any feelings I may have stomped on.

 

[microbe]

OK, no big deal, apology accepted and I hope it won't affect further discussion.

 

[grahamiam]

I'm no hard-ass when it comes to follow the rules to the smallest letter, I just advice we should try to do our best to follow them. If we bungle up a turn here and there, no big deal.

@bugs: i think you know well enough that i'm no hard-ass wrt rules either and i'm glad we resolved it. like i posted previously, "no worries" and i liked your move getting the dingy then the settler. extra contacts are always nice.

:dust settles: grs is up!

edit: and, btw, gozpel and i will take the blame for this misunderstanding. we should have hashed out the rules a little more clearly. i will edit the 1st post now

 

[gozpel]

Me taking any blame? How dare you?

I'm glad you sorted things out dudes, just try to understand that many things can be seen in different ways.

So:

microbe - You're not always right...or wrong for that matter.
Bugsy - I pout now and again too, but try to keep it down, even if it's hard.

Now discuss the game please.