GR8 - Phoenix Rising

[Northern Pike]

I don't think there is a right decision on this one.

I agree...but my preferred wrong decision would be to switch to a granary in Ur. To me this is the natural way to take advantage of early peace in AW. Also, we'll be in our GA as soon as we're attacked--which stinks, but at least means that we can take a chance now, with that extra production as a buffer.

Did you notice Obormot's question about pre-declaration trading? I would assume that we can't, since it could pretty seriously compromise our premise, but it's your call.

Lfyuan, a point of AW technique which may not be obvious to you yet : We needn't risk any more exploration, since we know where our next few cities are going. The Enk near the mountain should return to Ur.

 

[Greebley]

No, I missed the question.

I feel there should be no trading before we declare war.

I will update the first post.

 

[Greebley]

Choosing a Granary is very strong when it works out.

lfyuan, I think you should with granary/barracks/settler based on your own preference. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.


Roster:
Greebley
ThERat - Just Played
lfyuan - Up
Northern Pike - On Deck
MeteorPunch
Obormot

 

[Heroes]

changed MM so settler pops immediately

in 2800BC settle Sumer and we get 25gold popping the hut

we didn't have any contact yet, went for 2 barracks after EW, chopped 1 forest to speed it up in the capital and this
revealed BG
after rax we should go for settler/EW in capital and worker in Sumer IMHO

we only need to survive another 2 1/2 millenia and we can get peaceful turns :wink:

Thanks, Rat, I get it. Good to MM and have settler done faster by 1 turn, and happy to see 25 gold and BG (hope we didn't exhaust our RNG luck ). I notice that now there are already 32 and 16 shields in boxes of Ur and Sumer, -- so no way to change them to settler or Enkidu.

However, I seriously doubt the usefulness of rax in Ur. From where shall we build the 2nd settler? Of course from Ur. But if there is a rax and we don't build military there, then it's a waste of 1 gpt, let alone the 40 shileds of rax. In general, a city with rax should only produce military units, and a city with granary should only produce workers and settlers, -- that's what I think.

Now we are very weak in that both towns are not in hill. We don't know how to build walls, and we are researching iron working. It will be a pain to guard Ur and Sumer. I plan to settle ASAP on some hills, hoping those will become kill zones. I draw a dot map. The red dot (or the one next to it where an Enkidu is sitting) is the No. 1 place to go, because it's close to Ur and can control 2 wines. The blue one has gold resource. The green one has lake and wheat. But those 2 are far away and can wait.

For now, I would like to MM Ur so that it has 7 spt and 2 fpt, so it will have granary after 4 turns, then begin to build settler or worker. There are quite a few forests around Ur, so maybe it's faster to get a 2nd worker and chop than to build settler directly. We will be quite thin for a while, but since NoAIPatrol=0, it will take some time for AI to gather its units. When we get to the hill, that town will begin to build its own regular Enkidus, and they should have good chance to win vs. regular archers.

My biggest question is: how to bait AI to attack our hill town? Is there any principle or clue? Thank you!

Another word about "surviving". I hope people are joking, but I can't help to say that we cannot only survive. Either we are destroyed before AD, or we make great progress to defeat nearby AI. It is very unlikely to keep a stalemate till as late as turn 128. We are even not allowed to have GLib and initial trade before war, so it will be actually much harder than normal AW. So ... we should not count on peaceful catch up for now, otherwise we are very unlikely to be alive when peace is possible!

 

[Heroes]

Lfyuan, a point of AW technique which may not be obvious to you yet : We needn't risk any more exploration, since we know where our next few cities are going. The Enk near the mountain should return to Ur.

Thanks, Pike. I agree that more exploration is no good. Actually, I'm wondering why we did all those explorations, especially when Ur is in short of a MP!

 

[Greebley]

The problem is that it is unlikely that enemies will come from the direction of the hills. Even if we could lure them (you do so by protecting all other towns with at least 2 units - preferably 3), we don't want them crossing our lands and pillaging. I would rather stick with the better layout I proposed (your proposal doesn't allow for a coastal town for example) even though it misses the hill. That hill will be in the center of or Empire fairly quickly and thus useless in terms of front line defense.

 

[Heroes]

The problem is that it is unlikely that enemies will come from the direction of the hills. Even if we could lure them (you do so by protecting all other towns with at least 2 units - preferably 3), we don't want them crossing our lands and pillaging. I would rather stick with the better layout I proposed (your proposal doesn't allow for a coastal town for example) even though it misses the hill. That hill will be in the center of or Empire fairly quickly and thus useless in terms of front line defense.

Thanks. We surely don't want foes crossing our lands and pillaging, but how to do that? Do you mean there is a better way than luring them to a front city? Or do you mean there is practically no way?

For hill towns, I don't think they are bound to be there for ever. Their main purpose is to provide kill zone. If we make great progress later, we can disband them and make new cities in better positions. If a hill town is not supposed to be permanent, we can have it only build units, artilleries, and workers, no improvements. But for now, I think the 1st thing is to increase our kill ratio as much as possible. Coastal towns can just wait till they become useful. If a hill town becomes in the center of empire quickly, it just means we have glorious victories, which is more than welcome

Altogether, the main issues are: 1. How strong would we expect the enemies? Do we have the luxury to build towns without considering hill benefit? 2. Even if the enemy is really tough, is a hill town really helpful? My (premature) guess is that the enemy is strong, and a hill town will make considerable difference. Your point is, from my understanding, no matter foes are strong or not, hill towns won't help much, right?

 

[Greebley]

How about this - I think your blue town makes a much better target town than your red one. I am hoping we imbed the red one well within our territory. Target for target towns well inside, they don't get attacked so walls/hills are meaningless. You will kill the units before they get there (or else they pillage).

I wouldn't worry about a target town this turn. We have too few defenders to set one up. They will attack whatever town is closest.

 

[Heroes]

BC2550:
Ur and Sumer has 32 and 16 shields in boxes. The lone citizen of Sumer is working in a forest not near river, leaving the sugar plain or river BG, which looks not so great. Change Ur to granary, because we can make 5 fpt, and when pop of Ur increases by 6 times, the 60 shields is back. MM Ur so that it gains 7 spt and 2 fpt. MM Sumer so that it will grow in 2 turns rather than 3 turns.

BC2510, 2470, 2430:
The exploring Enkidu goes back to Ur. Increase science slider when he arrives in Ur.

BC2390:
Ur granary -> rax. It has now 8 food in granary, so MM to 4 fpt and 5 spt.

BC2350: nada.

BC2310: worker finishes mining, begins road.

BC2270:
Ur pop reaches 6, increase lux. MM it to make 5 fpt and 5 spt. Sumer is in a hateful status: 36 shields and 15 foods in box, making 3 spt and 3 fpt. The only way to make rax done faster is to work 2 forests, but it will delay growth
by 1 turn. Damn, but I still do it.

BC2230: Sumer rax -> Enkidu.

BC2190:
Ur pop reaches 7, 31 shields in box. MM it to make 9 spt and 3 fpt. More food > 10 is not really needed, because we will build settler and drop its pop, so a citizen can become scientist afterwards. Worker finishes road the river BG, goes to link Sumer.

BC2150:
Ur rax -> Enkidu. MM it to 10 spt and -1 fpt (change a river wine citizen to scientist, can be changed if wish). Sumer has 6 shields in box, so change a citizen to 1 forest to finish Enkidu. Iron working is due in 10 turns rather than 11 turns, because of the scientist.

That's it. Northen Pike will determine where to put our future straggled settler. This is my first SG run. Feels much more tired than solo, but a lot of fun!

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
lfyuan (now Heroes) -- just played
Northern Pike -- up
MeteorPunch -- on deck
Obormot

Good luck, everybody!

 

[Heroes]

A picture of BC 2150. I do feel very sad for the wasted fish near Ur ...

 

[Own]

lurker's comment: Definately falling behind on expansion. You have more than enough enkidu's in Ur, time for a settler. You need to be a bit more aggressive.

 

[Heroes]

lurker's comment: Definately falling behind on expansion. You have more than enough enkidu's in Ur, time for a settler. You need to be a bit more aggressive.

Sorry, I don't have experience in AW. How many defenders are enough? I'm guessing we'd better send 2 vet Enkidus out with a settler.

 

[Own]

1 2 defense unit in a walled town or city is plenty, can tackle a stack of 8 warriors . Only 1 enkidu is necessary for escort. That city can quickly build another.

 

[Heroes]

1 2 defense unit in a walled town or city is plenty, can tackle a stack of 8 warriors . Only 1 enkidu is necessary for escort. That city can quickly build another.

The problem is that we cannot afford losing a settler or city. At 2550 BC, there are 32 and 16 shields in boxes of Ur and Sumer, so have to continue some infras. After the granary in Ur is done, the rax in Sumer is still being built, so ... We only have 3 regular enkidus now, it seems not to be "too many", IMHO.

 

[Obormot]

I would switch Ur to settler. Even if we get a contact next turn, it still takes some time for the AI to send an invasion force. I think Sumer will produce enough enkidus for a while and our 3rd town should buil some workers.

 

[ThERat]

switch to settler immediately is my advise, we need more towns faster. Pop 7 is impressive at this level and time, but I rather have more towns.

 

[Heroes]

switch to settler immediately is my advise, we need more towns faster. Pop 7 is impressive at this level and time, but I rather have more towns.

Right, I agree to switch Ur to settler now. Sumer can make 3 spt if working 3 grass or plain tiles, 4 spt if 1 forest, 5 spt if 2 forests. That can mean 2 turn Enkidu or 5 turn archer, -- I prefer the former for now. Ur now has 12 food in box, and is making 10 spt and -1 fpt due to a scientist. Building a settler in 3 turns will just end up at 5 pop and 10 food (the last turn must fire the scientist). At that time there will be 2 vet Enkidus in Sumer to escort and guard.

When the granary was done, it seems that it's too dangerous to send out a settler with a regular Enkidu, when Sumer is building rax. I apologize in advance if my building rax before settler in Ur leads to problem ...

 

[Northern Pike]

Got it.

With a granary and two barracks built before any contact, I think we stand fairly well.

 

[Heroes]

Got it.

With a granary and two barracks built before any contact, I think we stand fairly well.

Where to found the next city? I guess a choice is the hill 1 tile northwest to the gold resource hill. It should be near river, so get 1 more food, and the citizen can work the gold hill with 2 fpt. Being with nice spacing with other cities (Sumer and the green dot picking the wheat), the city is going to be permanent and free to build infras. It should be better than founding directly on the gold. What's your idea?

 

[Northern Pike]

1750 BC--settler still has movement