GR8 - Phoenix Rising

[Northern Pike]

2150 (0): I switch Ur to a settler build.

Sumer Enk --> Enk.


2110 (1): Nothing much.


2070 (2): Ur settler --> Enk. The next settler is six turns away in any case, due to the food situation.


2030 (3): Sumer Enk --> Enk.

The Vikings appear.


1990 (4): We declare war on the Vikings.

Ur Enk --> settler.


1950 (5): We found Lagash on the agreed spot next to the mountain.

The Aztecs appear.


1910 (6): War with the Aztecs.

A Viking archer dies attacking an Enk in Sumer (1-0), and our GA begins.

Sumer Enk --> archer.

We get our first palace expansion.

The Vikings complete the Colossus.


1870 (7): Ugh, the numerous Viking warriors around Lagash won't attack and commit suicide. Obviously they're going to roam and pillage.

Iron Working --> Masonry, theoretically due in eight turns at 90% (though the deficit will be a problem). I thought about HBR, but I'd rather have something definitely useful (walls) after one tech than just a chance at horsemen after two.


1830 (8): We can see no iron.

A Viking archer falls attacking an Enk in the open (2-0).

Ur settler --> Enk.


1790 (9): Ur Enk --> Enk.

Sumer archer --> archer.


1750 (10): Our new archer cuts down a Viking warrior (3-0).

 

[Northern Pike]

Our position looks a little messy with Viking warriors in our core, but we shouldn't have any trouble holding our cities, given reasonable caution.

Our settler still has its movement, so the next player can decide whether he wants to found a city next turn on the spot already occupied by an Enk, or wait until a larger garrison is available.

I'm building archers in Sumer because the town is naturally around 7 spt, in our GA. But in Ur (10 spt) I think two Enks will give a better return on two turns than one archer.

BTW, the Enk in Sumer and the one outside Lagash have both used 2/3 of a movement point, so if you're making adjustments before hitting Enter, be careful. The active Enk in Ur, which should just fortify where it is, has also used 2/3 of an MP.

 

[Northern Pike]

Lonely no more:

 

[Heroes]

It looks safe so far.

One thing I want to know: if we fortify EW on a tile, when would the warriors and archers attack him and when wouldn't? Because I want to keep the 2 tiles of irrigated wines. If one of them is pillaged, we cannot gain 5 fpt.

The coastal place where a EW is standing looks nice: 3 BG around. I suggest to settle there. We need more worker(s) to road BG and to mine river grass. The forest where the settler is in can be chopped to help building rax in the new town.

To train archer in Sumer, a citizen needs to work a forest without road. In GA this a shortage of 2 gpt. How about change him to a river grass? It would better if some worker can mine it. My logic is anyway we need enough EW's first, so archers can wait. I guess we need 2 EW per city, and some more to guard worker(s), future settler, exposed archer, key roads, so the need for EW will overwhelm that for archer in near future.

 

[MeteorPunch]

1750BC-1500BC

1750
1725
Viking warrior pillages a road.
Declare war on Spain.
Kish founded.

1700
1675
Survive 5 attacks at Lagash and 3 at Sumer...whew!

1650
1625
1600
Masonry discovered.

1575
Declare war on Carthage.

1550
Lose an elite Endiku to an archer.

1525
Persia completes the Pyramids.
Celts complete the Oracle.
Declare war on Korea.

1500

- 60/128 AW turns played.
- not sure about the current build orders. It might be time for another city. It's location is not obvious though, with jungle and marsh below the capital.

 

[Obormot]

Wow! With so many wars and no iron things are going to get very interesting.

 

[Greebley]

Yup We are a long way from 10 AD too. Goold Luck Obormot. Remember that meeting a lot of civs at once means multiple initial attacks. Be prepared.

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
ThERat
Heroes
Northern Pike
MeteorPunch
Obormot - Up

 

[ThERat]

if we survive this, it will be a real Phoenix rising from the ashes

 

[Heroes]

Ho! Fighting 5 deity civs simultaneously ... Good that we don't see swords yet. But, SPAIN HAS 1 EXTRA IRON!

We are paying 3 gpt for units: 3 workers, 5 archers, 11 EWs. It's time to found a new city. I suggest to go to the hill close to the gold and river. Working the gold will help our research.

If we get a leader, how about sending out a EW army to Spain to pillage its irons?

 

[Heroes]

Amazingly, our military is average vs. Korea and Aztecs, although Aztecs has 10 cities! They are toast ...

We are weak comparing to Spain, Carthage, and Viking. We need to get rid of Spain's irons ASAP.

 

[Heroes]

Since we have already met 5 civs, it's unlikely we will meet more nearby. So how about sending vet EWs out to pillage, explore, sit on hills and mountains to scare workers? This strategy was proposed by Greebley in the small map AWS SG. We will suffer high unit support, but it could suppress AIs more.

 

[MeteorPunch]

If we get an army I would wait until we are facing MA units to pillage. I think we can handle swords and horses + have the army on the homefront. Also an archer army may be more beneficial.

 

[Heroes]

If we get an army I would wait until we are facing MA units to pillage. I think we can handle swords and horses + have the army on the homefront. Also an archer army may be more beneficial.

An army at home can only kill invading units, while a pillaging army can degrade all the invading units. EWs behind walls can deal with arches happily, but will take a deep breath vs. swords and horses. Well, another reason I would like to send EW army to Spain is to know where are the irons and we could settle there. If we monopolize iron, then in 10 AD maybe we already beat all the 5 buddies into dust ...

 

[MeteorPunch]

Monopolize Iron? We're on a large map, so there is probably Iron everywhere except for where we started. In the time our army is out pillaging an Iron he could have killed dozens of enemies back home.

I think we just need to keep slowly expanding and hold out for another round through the turnset.

 

[Heroes]

Monopolize Iron? We're on a large map, so there is probably Iron everywhere except for where we started. In the time our army is out pillaging an Iron he could have killed dozens of enemies back home.

I think we just need to keep slowly expanding and hold out for another round through the turnset.

Yeah, it's sad that we don't have iron nearby. But Spain has 2, so at least we are not in an ironless island.

In C3C the resources could be distributed very unevenly. In one of my recent standard maps, I get 5 irons in a continent, whereas the other continent has one 1.

Our purpose is not to kill as many units as possible, but to increase our RELATIVE power as much as possible. Getting rid of Spain's irons (lest she sells 1 to another civ) is a harder blow than killing 20 swords, IMHO. Actually I am refering to HNDY20, where they are losing because they didn't go for pillaging earlier. We can hold fairly well using EWs when no swords is coming, so I guess we should catch this opportunity to eliminate swords before they have the chance. When a swarm of swords knock our door, we will be under too big pressure to freely pillage. Just my 2 cents ...

 

[MeteorPunch]

I'm not concerned with our relative power now. I'm just concerend about how big our land will be 68 turns from now when we are trying to catch up. Pillaging an Iron from Spain just means there will be swords and horses coming from all the other civs. I'll say it again, taking out one civ's resource (which will be reconnected as soon as we move the army towards the next civ), will not help us as much as an army killing units within our borders.

 

[Heroes]

I'm not concerned with our relative power now. I'm just concerend about how big our land will be 68 turns from now when we are trying to catch up. Pillaging an Iron from Spain just means there will be swords and horses coming from all the other civs. I'll say it again, taking out one civ's resource (which will be reconnected as soon as we move the army towards the next civ), will not help us as much as an army killing units within our borders.

I see your point. I guess I'm thinking in terms of AW, while you are thinking things after 10 AD ... Good luck to do it your way!

 

[MeteorPunch]

Hopefully we get some armies to make our debate worthwhile.

 

[Greebley]

Agree with MP's reasoning.

Another thing to consider: The larger the size of the map, the less effective a pillaging strategy becomes. For a large map, even if this was AW, we could not keep the resources disconnected without serious numbers of armies in the field which means being a lot bigger than we are now.

I think any army should be used to keep us as big as possible. One worry I have is that if we just barely survive, we may not be able to afford peace to get out of the wars. I don't think anyone has tested what the price of peace is if you remain small but at war for 100 turns. Is the enemy willing to give a good price because of the units they have lost? Or does your small army mean that the price is high?

I am just hoping the price isn't so high as to make this variant impractical (though that depends on how well you do in the AW part). I

It might also be worthwhile to destroy small cities of our nearest foes if we can. That may mean we can get peace easier (though make them madder if we Raze).

 

[Heroes]

Hopefully we get some armies to make our debate worthwhile.

We have only 1 elite unit: a EW. Why we have 5 archers? Are we going to count on them to do leader fishing?

BTW: I still think archer army is less good than EW army. EW army has 3 defense, it can cover others for a long time (at least till cavalry, don't know about tank). Archer army has 3 attack and 1 defense, dare it attack a numidian on a hill?