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Grade the AI

Crashed

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
2
I've read in many reviews that the AI is terrible, but in almost all cases it seems the reviewer has played very little civ IV, or if he did he never beat even monarch.

2k Greg commented it gets smarter as the difficulty goes up, and that Napoleon even tried to embark troops but stopped doing it once he saw it was not working, which (at least for me) was a great sign of hope.

So please alleviate the agony of waiting till friday by reviewing the AI performances in your games! Is it good at diplomacy? War? Trade?

Thanks!
 
C- or C overall, I can't decide.

It expands and grabs territory efficiently, is passable for city placement, and actively techs, does research agreements, and all that jazz. It is also capable of planning and launching a very destructive and reasonably well played attack when it's the one declaring war - basically, when it does so on its terms. I've been hit by very nasty attacks with infantry type units fronting for archers with cavalry running around for cleanup and backfield disruption. It will also actively pursue victory conditions if you're not paying attention to them - which can be a problem on the huge maps I prefer, as Napoleon across the map might just pull out a culture victory on me.

That being said, it does not handle a good number of things well at all. It doesn't adapt to various situations when embarking units - it'll embark units in positions prone to your naval units or ranged units and won't adapt when it becomes apparent that the units are prone. It also tends to overcommit horse units which, while being devastating when it has a significant military advantage as it'll wipe out reinforcements, it just makes for a lot of easy kills when a player has the units to follow up on and kill poorly defended horses.

What's more, once its initial forces are destroyed, it has a poor understanding (as much as you can say AI understands) of how to effectively fall back and conglomerate a defensive position and counterattack. In fairness, no Civ AI has ever been good at this, but in previous Civs it made less difference because units were cheaper and there were far more of them to take out, so an initial major loss usually still left the AI with substantial forces left behind - and slavery/drafting allowed the AI to easily pick up the slack. Though, I was somewhat impressed fighting Mongolia today, after he captured one of my cities and our forces were both decimated to 20% or less, the bugger bought walls and a castle in the city he'd just captured from me and had a few keshiks cycling in and out of it whenever I tried to capture it, effectively harassing my force of two trebs and four longswords and forcing me to move to another front in order to continue the war effectively.

I get the distinct feeling that the AI has been effectively programmed to operate in a limited set of circumstances, and in those circumstances, which do occur frequently, it does its job ranging between adequately and well. As soon as it breaks out of those particular scenarios it is effectively programmed in, it utterly falls apart. I see examples of both in almost every game I play, and until they get it to the point of it being a rarity that the AI falls apart, I'll give it a bare passing grade since I am both at times challenged and impressed and at times unchallenged and unimpressed in any given game.

As for diplomacy and trade.. Trade it is simple - if it likes you, it'll trade fairly, if it doesn't, it either won't trade or try and rip you off. I'd give it a B- in this regard - functional, but simple. And for diplomacy? Meh, it's tough to say. It knows how to hate you, to find excuses to hate you, and I'm just starting to get a feel for making an ally and sticking with them. I'd give it a C- since the diplomacy seems stacked towards pecking parties, group denouncements, and group war declarations - for relatively small infractions. Needs more ways a player can actively work towards to make, keep, and motivate/manipulate allies.
 
I suspect that it's the smartest AI ever in a civ game.

I think too much is being asked of it with this tactical/strategic overlay and routing 1UPT.
 
B-

It's ever so slightly above average. Civ is complex, so making a Civ game requires a far better AI than your average game.

That said, the AI is mediocre at just about everything...which means the avg player will get a challenge somewhere in the difficulty spectrum...but it isn't as challenging as the Civ IV AI post-Bhruic.

If you're an A-level player, you won't get a challenge though -- and multiplayer isn't too functional which adds to frustrations by the top tier.

Sam
 
Diplomatic AI is pretty awful, though a lot of this is the fault of the diplomatic system itself
Settling/expansion AI is pretty awful
Building AI is okay, but there's too much unit spam at higher levels
Terrain improvement AI is perfectly adequate

Combat AI, isolated from the other AI faults that also hinder its combat performance, is actually not too bad. Unlike previous Civ games, it actually plays the same game as you rather than just holing up in cities full to the brim with archers. It responds to threats, it favours defending cities with siege/ranged units, it retreats and heals wounded units, it focuses fire, it tends to keep some formation, it's very opportunistic with its horse units against unprotected achers/siege, it's good at mounting attacks on cities, it tends to do a half-decent job of shielding archers, and it's pretty good with using generals. Once it starts losing, it can be rather suicidal, and there's still a big problem of it running archers and siege units straight into your troops - this is easily its biggest problem. It doesn't handle anything involving boats very well either.

EDIT: AfterShafer pretty much nailed it, I think
 
Diplomatic AI is pretty awful, though a lot of this is the fault of the diplomatic system itself
Settling/expansion AI is pretty awful
Building AI is okay, but there's too much unit spam at higher levels
Terrain improvement AI is perfectly adequate

Combat AI, isolated from the other AI faults that also hinder its combat performance, is actually not too bad. Unlike previous Civ games, it actually plays the same game as you rather than just holing up in cities full to the brim with archers. It responds to threats, it favours defending cities with siege/ranged units, it retreats and heals wounded units, it focuses fire, it tends to keep some formation, it's very opportunistic with its horse units against unprotected achers/siege, it's good at mounting attacks on cities, it tends to do a half-decent job of shielding archers, and it's pretty good with using generals. Once it starts losing, it can be rather suicidal, and there's still a big problem of it running archers and siege units straight into your troops - this is easily its biggest problem. It doesn't handle anything involving boats very well either.

EDIT: AfterShafer pretty much nailed it, I think
I agree with this for the most part but I have seen some games where the ai has failed to improve a lux on king for as many as 50 turns.
 
B I guess. I dont want to factor in the diplomacy AI so much because its too suspectible to change, like the last patch flipping it over so instead of AI not doing anything when you near victory, all AIs go berserk if you even give the slightest hint later in the game, of a victory.

Transport AI is terrible though, and the AI loves spamming cities everywhere as of the latest big patch.
 
2k Greg commented it gets smarter as the difficulty goes up, and that Napoleon even tried to embark troops but stopped doing it once he saw it was not working, which (at least for me) was a great sign of hope.

When did 2K Greg say that? I had heard *I thought through official channels* that the only difference in difficulty was the bonuses (more smiles, extra tech, etc) attributed to the AI.
 
You guys are confusing the AI having enough units to wage a war, with the AI's capability to wage a war.

You're looking at 9 units grouped together and thinking, "wow, the AI really knows what it's doing!" when really the AI is just suiciding each unit into one of your cities. You can tell this is what the AI is doing because like Polycrates said, the AI will send single units in the same way. That's all it's doing regardless of its army's size. The AI has no strategic objectives and no tactical awareness in a war. It's basically playing like it always has in Civ, marching its troops along the move-to path to your city.

The AI also does not actively pursue any kind of victory condition. Yeah, it'll make a decision, but it's a very passive approach. The AI will happily go about its normal business until it just happens to meet the objective. No tech beelining, it doesn't seem to prioritize the wonders it needs, or any of that.

In short, the AI is functioning, but it's not competing on any meaningful level. I'm sorry but that's an F to me. An AI that seems designed to be beaten is fine for an RPG, but not in a game like this.

There is one part of the AI that I actually like, though. This is weird as hell to say given everyone else's perceived problems, but I think diplomacy atm is one of the post-patch AI's stronger points. Yeah, it'll turn on you if you're a warmonger, but it'll also do the same warmonger AIs. If you keep a low profile (i.e. don't casually conquer half the world), the AI can actually create an interesting diplomatic environment.

For example, I was part of a an DoF alliance with Songhai, America, and Egypt. Songhai waged a successful war against Siam, conquering the entire civ. This of course meant chain denouncements on Songhai, which gave me the choice of siding with Songhai or denouncing them myself so that I wasn't still on friendly terms with everyone's newfound enemy (the player needs to be able to cancel friendships like the AI can, btw). I chose to denounce them too which kept me on good terms with America and Egypt.

This behavior has been consistent in two subsequent games, making me think the diplomacy problems aren't as major as everyone else thinks. There needs to be more of a variable in how the AI reacts to warmongers (for example, other warmongers should react with war, cultural/scientific civs may choose one side or another, and diplomatic civs may try to remain neutral so as not to take CS standings hits), but the diplomacy's much more solid than the strategic or tactical aspects of the AI.

I would view the AI's schizophrenic peace deals a fault with the strategic AI, rather than a diplomacy issue, btw.
 
Got to say Frozen, some of the things you said are directly contrary to what I've seen.

You're looking at 9 units grouped together and thinking, "wow, the AI really knows what it's doing!" when really the AI is just suiciding each unit into one of your cities. You can tell this is what the AI is doing because like Polycrates said, the AI will send single units in the same way. That's all it's doing regardless of its army's size. The AI has no strategic objectives and no tactical awareness in a war. It's basically playing like it always has in Civ, marching its troops along the move-to path to your city.

If that were true, the units wouldn't have any sort of organization in that group of 9, but they do. I'm seeing consistent clear infantry in front, ranged behind, and horses looping around or sneaking through the cracks to hit priority targets (siege/archers) or cut off reinforcements. Polycrates is right - the AI will suicide individual siege units and such sometimes. I get the feeling it's when you've taken city Y, and it's trying to get to location X in some terrible spot, and it just waltzes by hostile territory to get there. This factors into the point of adaptability I was raising, but... When it gets those 9 units together, they do operate with some principles of coordination in mind as far as I can tell. It's not just happenstance that there were 9 units together and it was scary - the siege is consistently behind the lines lobbing over, etc. I'm sure there are exceptions, but, I've noticed the AI using simple group formations quite effectively in attacks.

The AI also does not actively pursue any kind of victory condition. Yeah, it'll make a decision, but it's a very passive approach. The AI will happily go about its normal business until it just happens to meet the objective. No tech beelining, it doesn't seem to prioritize the wonders it needs, or any of that.

I don't know what to tell you. I've had the AI pull out culture wins on me relatively early before. Was it pure coincidence, that they just passively stumbled onto it? I can't tell you. It sure didn't seem like it was just going about its "normal business" to me. I really can't tell you what Napoleon's tech path was when he got a cultural victory on me a week ago, but I do know he got the Sistine Chapel and a few other snazzy cultural related wonders.

I'm not suggesting acts of strategic genius in either case, but I don't think it's quite the haphazard automaton that you're making it out to be.
 
Utter bull.. the AI plays exactly the same way on every - level - and it plays BADLY. It is an old PR spin to make AI sound better to say "it plays harder on higher levels" = it cheats.

I don't know i 2KGreg said it but either way it is pure spin.

Rat
 
I'm not suggesting acts of strategic genius in either case, but I don't think it's quite the haphazard automaton that you're making it out to be.

Oh believe me, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong. I'm just going by what I've seen though.
 
Diplomacy is really just a joke. It's unfair to grade the AI on diplomacy when it's a system of demerits only and most of the demerits are for doing things like settling cities, beating up your neighbor and building wonders, i.e. playing the game. Eventually everyone has umpteen million demerits with everyone else, so they all hate each other. It's a fundamental flaw in the system and there's no way for it to operate intelligently.

Tactically the AI is horrible. The patch did improve it, but it's still very bad. Sometimes it will do smart things like focus fire to destroy a threat and it can carpet pretty well if you give it a chance, but then I see it doing things like bombarding my one swordsman that isn't adjacent to the city because he has 9 hit points and the rest have 10 or I have to back off from a city surrounded by mountains because of the cannon defending it and limited access. As soon as I back up a little, that cannon comes out after me. Just stupid. Often if the AI comes at me, it will send a decent force, but even if every single unit it sent is killed by my counter, it will continue to trickle in invaders one or two at a time. Of course if the initial force of 4-8 units is killed, how likely is it that one lone catapult will come in and clean up?

Strategically the AI does pretty well with one major caveat. It will expand well. It will execute beelines. It will make research agreements. It techs fairly smartly. Seems like Bismarck always tries to build the GL to slingshot to Civil Service so he can spam Landsknechts. That's good play and there are other examples. A lot has been made of AI ICS. Now maybe that shouldn't be good play, but currently it is. An immortal AI will get stronger with that tundra ice city or one tile island city, so it definitely should build them.

However, picking the victory condition that you're playing for at the start of the game and sticking to it come hell or high water is not smart play. I've played enough endgames against an very far advanced AI that must be playing for a time victory. There's no other possible conclusion. Probably starting at King level, an AI playing for time victory is playing to lose unless the player is also playing for a time victory. Any player who can hold his own at King will be able to get the spaceship up before time is called, no matter what's going on.

I don't know for a fact that the AI does in fact have its victory condition assigned at the start of the game, but that's the only way I can explain some of this behavior. I played a game in which Caesar got to the future era before I got to modern, yet I still built the Apollo Project first. He never invaded anyone and had expanded a lot. He had a lot of money but wasn't buying city-states. What victory condition could he possibly have been playing for other than time? So I won the game but it didn't really feel like winning because my opponent wasn't playing to win.

If the goal is to make the AI play like a human then, like a human, it should pursue the easiest victory condition if it looks like someone else is close to winning.
 
Its a computer. A programmed code to run and make decisions. All our tactics are made to beat them but the inverse dont apply. The devs dont build a code to beat us. I would say thats impossible, not becouse the devs should be terribad players, but becouse we should be able to win the game.
It should become more smart, really. But its not that bad.

I really think the AI should persue more victory conditions and try to stop who is very close to win.

Lets say Napoleon is obsviosly going to science or cultural victory. Human players when be aware of that will declare war and nuke them to the hell. Or will bribe someone to get Napoleon. Becouse we know that if someone wins, we cant win. If the AI have access (like us) to the victory conditions table and know that napoleon is half way to finish their ship they should dogpile him. If they know someone is getting mass ally with CSs, they should try to conquer these CSs, or buy the ally title.

Thats is what is lacking. The AI become more smart to prevent us from winning. Combat must be improved, of course, but its not that bad the way it is at the momment...
 
Just curious, did the AI have happiness problems and idle workers as far as you could tell?

I dont know about the idle workers but they were buying luxuries off of my but this was a game before the big patch in december so this may not be an issue now in the game.
 
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