[NFP] Gran Colombia first look

[Casualty of war]

Ha, hah, hah, ha, ha.... whew, Gran Colombia is preposterous to play. If you gave me a civ where just the Settlers and Builders had +1 movement, I'm fairly sure I could run rings around opponents and AI, but ALL UNITS? And then the gratis general gives another +1 bonus to move and combat strength that isn't specific to units from any particular Era, along with Hey, why don't you start the Classical off with 4 Era Score just for breathing.

So, you can see in this game I put my cap near Giant's Causeway. It took me 5 movement to get there! Good thing I had 6, plop, settle, win.

Mongolia forward settled me and declared on me in the Ancient, Turn 35. It did not go well for them, because I had built 1 Settler, 1 Builder and the rest was troops. Once Manuel Piar showed up I shredded them, leaving them one city to Loyalty flip later and wipe them out; you don't get the Era Score but you also don't take the Grievance hit.

It took 8 Turns to take 5 cities from Indonesia, and Valletta finished off their last city. 5 move Horsemen that are eventually going to be some fantastic Llanero. This is the start of the Medieval and it's all over but the crying. I've got 13 cities, founded 2 and captured 10 + a Settler with 2 other Settlers parked waiting for Ancestral Hall to finish. I've already earned the Era Score for having 3 more cities than anyone else in the world. Deity, Standard Pangaea, Classical was a Normal Age.

Gran Columbia strategy and tactics? Build troops, don't waste time building Scouts because every unit is a scout, take your neighbor's stuff. Survive the Ancient and it's "Good game, sir." No way would I allow someone to play Simon in a multiplayer game. This is like playing Persia on constant hyperdrive.

Spoiler :

 

[Kwami]

I think the combination of a free Great General that also works on Ancient Era units, the +1 movement, and the "promotions don't end the turn" bonus are just too much in the early game. You can kill just about anyone without even trying. In my Gran Colombia game, I killed the two other civilizations on my continent (Scotland and Nubia) in the Classical Era and then just Science'd up with my 17 cities until I won. It was way too easy. I didn't even have to do anything to get those bonuses. Warriors and Archers with those bonuses can easily take our another civilization while you're going for Bronze Working and the like. Hell, Warriors and Slingers could probably do it. The AI doesn't build walls early enough to cause trouble.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I've been saying this for a while. They're really not as gamebreaking as people say

Yes They Are!!

Gran Colombia is fun to play and powerful but I wouldn’t say they are broken. No nerfs, please.

This is the real reason.
Many Players don't want any Dev Nerfing the Colombians!
They like playing this Super OP Civ

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

To elaborate on my earlier amenity comment:

The combination of domination and haciendas is problematic. I know that sounds odd but hear me out. You get negative amenities for occupied cities and warfare. The haciendas boost gold, production, and food, and are fun to spam. But doing so results in cities growing incredibly fast, requiring more and more amenities, sinking your empire into unhappiness. Even building entertainment complexes in every city, slotting the 1 amenity/2 districts card (do not have professional sports yet), having Zen Meditation AND stupas, and I am still struggling to keep them at 0.

While not really crippling, it is certainly a nuisance.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

To elaborate on my earlier amenity comment:

The combination of domination and haciendas is problematic. I know that sounds odd but hear me out. You get negative amenities for occupied cities and warfare. The haciendas boost gold, production, and food, and are fun to spam. But doing so results in cities growing incredibly fast, requiring more and more amenities, sinking your empire into unhappiness. Even building entertainment complexes in every city, slotting the 1 amenity/2 districts card (do not have professional sports yet), having Zen Meditation AND stupas, and I am still struggling to keep them at 0.

While not really crippling, it is certainly a nuisance.

Sounds like those cities need to be stagnated.

 

[leandrombraz]

I assumed the Llanero was heavy cavalry for some reason, so I made an army of mostly heavy cavalry units, hoping to get some experienced Llaneros later. Now I'm the sad owner of way too many Cuirassier and only a couple of experienced Llaneros =(


So far, I don't feel like Gran Colombia is OP. It doesn't feel more powerful than the Aztecs, for example. You can steamroll quite effective while going for domination, but I don't feel like it's much different from other powerful domination Civs. I'm playing a diplo victory with plenty of war, the extra movement is extremely helpful. but it isn't breaking anything.

 

[Vandlys]

I assumed the Llanero was heavy cavalry for some reason, so I made an army of mostly heavy cavalry units, hoping to get some experienced Llaneros later. Now I'm the sad owner of way too many Cuirassier and only a couple of experienced Llaneros =(


So far, I don't feel like Gran Colombia is OP. It doesn't feel more powerful than the Aztecs, for example. You can steamroll quite effective while going for domination, but I don't feel like it's much different from other powerful domination Civs. I'm playing a diplo victory with plenty of war, the extra movement is extremely helpful. but it isn't breaking anything.

You don't notice a huge difference between your bombards and those of other civs? Move and attack from the get-go? How about healing everytime you get a promotion, and immediately blasting on the enemy again with more force?

 

[Sostratus]

You don't notice a huge difference between your bombards and those of other civs? Move and attack from the get-go? How about healing everytime you get a promotion, and immediately blasting on the enemy again with more force?

I think what gets lost is that a Civ doesn’t have to be “overpowered” 100% of the time - namely when people play and aren’t at war - to be seriously out of line. We all know about Hungary’s little city state cheese.
GC has something very similar if they simply push an early encampment for a classical GG- they end up with an army of whatever they have around fighting with +10 strength and +3 move over everyone else. In the classical.
Yes, it’s possible that a couple civs out there can stand up to it with very good play. But when you get shoot’n’scoot catapults that hit like a domrey, and swords that are stronger and faster than knights (!!!) an era early, you really have to at least consider toning down some of the stacking they can do.

Because right now it cannot be countered in a reasonable way, and there is almost nothing you can do about it as 1 player. (Even if you rush your own General, you cannot Deny them all the classical GGs, and they can either fight you at +5str and +2 move, or just takeover a different neighbor.)

 

[AntSou]

I assumed the Llanero was heavy cavalry for some reason, so I made an army of mostly heavy cavalry units, hoping to get some experienced Llaneros later. Now I'm the sad owner of way too many Cuirassier and only a couple of experienced Llaneros =(

Well, it's a guy with a guitar on his back wearing a straw hat and some cloth shirt

 

[IvoryPavane]

The lack of balance for GC doesn’t bother me so much in a vacuum, but against the context of other Civilisations it is pretty irritating.

Like France has 20% production against wonders in *certain* eras. Stack that up against +1 movement to EVERYTHING, it’s hard not to see power creep in play. (And it’s not like France has anything else going for it to counterbalance. Chateau is weaker than hacienda overall etc etc)

+1 movement to non-military units, and can move after promotions would be fine. Let the GG take care of the military movement.

After that, start looking at your other Civs. I do value buffing over nerfing in general

 

[leandrombraz]

I think what gets lost is that a Civ doesn’t have to be “overpowered” 100% of the time - namely when people play and aren’t at war - to be seriously out of line. We all know about Hungary’s little city state cheese.
GC has something very similar if they simply push an early encampment for a classical GG- they end up with an army of whatever they have around fighting with +10 strength and +3 move over everyone else. In the classical.
Yes, it’s possible that a couple civs out there can stand up to it with very good play. But when you get shoot’n’scoot catapults that hit like a domrey, and swords that are stronger and faster than knights (!!!) an era early, you really have to at least consider toning down some of the stacking they can do.

Because right now it cannot be countered in a reasonable way, and there is almost nothing you can do about it as 1 player. (Even if you rush your own General, you cannot Deny them all the classical GGs, and they can either fight you at +5str and +2 move, or just takeover a different neighbor.)

GG and the Commandante General stacking is the only thing that I think should be changed, because that adds more combat strength on top of the extra movement. Since I'm not playing domination, I didn't try to get a GG and stack them. Without it, Gran Colombia is powerful, but hardly broken.

 

[Kwami]

GG and the Commandante General stacking is the only thing that I think should be changed, because that adds more combat strength on top of the extra movement. Since I'm not playing domination, I didn't try to get a GG and stack them. Without it, Gran Colombia is powerful, but hardly broken.

No, that really wouldn't be enough. I almost never play violent games. I only have one conquest victory in GS! But when I tried Gran Colombia, conquering was trivial. I didn't need a regular Great General. Just having the CG, the +1 movement, and the promotion not ending turns ability is enough to kill anyone early on. You don't even need archers or swordsman because the CG buffs ancient era units, unlike a regular GG. It's totally nuts.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

I finished my Gran Colombia game with a religious victory. I forgot how easy domination makes the religion game.

 

[UWHabs]

GG and the Commandante General stacking is the only thing that I think should be changed, because that adds more combat strength on top of the extra movement. Since I'm not playing domination, I didn't try to get a GG and stack them. Without it, Gran Colombia is powerful, but hardly broken.

All the stacking in regards to the CG are really broken. Stacking the movement bonus with the regular Colombian bonus creates 4-move warriors very early in the game, and the combat stacking goes a little crazy otherwise. It feels to be that Colombia should not be able to earn regular GG, but instead when they would earn one, they simply get a CG instead. That would help both cycle through them more each game, would still be more powerful than a regular GG (since they affect all units, not restricted to eras), and really not hurt them in the least bit.

 

[Sostratus]

After that, start looking at your other Civs. I do value buffing over nerfing in general

I do get concerned about power creep and trying to buff civs to line up with an ever rising standard.

That said I do grasp why they likely won’t change the UA- “+1 movement to all units” has a deep elegance to it. You lose something intangible by qualifying it. In contrast to something like France where changing +20% to +40% really doesn’t affect the crux of the ability.

I think there is a distinct category of “weak civs” that need to be looked at, but that’s totally independent of extremely strong civs (which I would consider GC.)

All the stacking in regards to the CG are really broken. Stacking the movement bonus with the regular Colombian bonus creates 4-move warriors very early in the game, and the combat stacking goes a little crazy otherwise. It feels to be that Colombia should not be able to earn regular GG, but instead when they would earn one, they simply get a CG instead. That would help both cycle through them more each game, would still be more powerful than a regular GG (since they affect all units, not restricted to eras), and really not hurt them in the least bit.

This would be a neat change - barring them from regular GG in favor of just having CGs. Since CGs apply to all units, and have some crazy good effects, it's a fair trade off for everything else the civ gets.

 

[MrRadar]

I'd say let them retain everything they have for their land units and GG/CG effect stacking on their home continent. Outside home continent, CG no effect, all land units back to normal movement, promotions end turn, and they could even have -5 CS penalty. Naval and embarked units could use just plain normal movement wherever they are, not to take away from other civs whose strengths are on the waves.

 

[Weraptor]

Just giving him penalty of no increased movement outside of home continent sounds good enough for me. Ideally, an additional loyalty penalty on top of that.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

The sad thing is that I felt rushed to play GC because with all of the Nerf crying, I feel they will be needlessly nerfed. While it is powerful, it is not overwhelmingly so and I believe a competent player can fend off a strong military opponent.

It's sad because I don't remember the cries for nerfs for any other civ but Hungary. Are they the only two people have thought were overwhelmingly "broken"? I am relatively new to these forums, joining up around Gathering Storm, so I have no idea. I remember people complained heartedly about how weak England, Canada, and Georgia used to appear. They eventually got buffed and Hungary got nerfed.

Where does it end? Should we expect the devs to do a pass and start rebalancing the civs that rank highly in our various forum competitions? Isn't placing highly a sign the civ might be too powerful?

 

[lotrmith]

The sad thing is that I felt rushed to play GC because with all of the Nerf crying, I feel they will be needlessly nerfed. While it is powerful, it is not overwhelmingly so and I believe a competent player can fend off a strong military opponent.

It's sad because I don't remember the cries for nerfs for any other civ but Hungary. Are they the only two people have thought were overwhelmingly "broken"? I am relatively new to these forums, joining up around Gathering Storm, so I have no idea. I remember people complained heartedly about how weak England, Canada, and Georgia used to appear. They eventually got buffed and Hungary got nerfed.

Where does it end? Should we expect the devs to do a pass and start rebalancing the civs that rank highly in our various forum competitions? Isn't placing highly a sign the civ might be too powerful?

At least for me in this case GC's ability to have +1 movement combined with promotions not ending turn is just game-breaking good. Your units can attack without return fire. They can move and pillage, or pillage and run. With promotions, they can heal and get stronger before they perform an attack. This also necessarily means they level up faster, as they have an opportunity to perform an additional attack at each upgrade rather than losing a turn.

Throw on the free, all-encompassing CGs that buff all unit types regardless of era and give an additional movement point and cannot be captured/killed and it's ridiculous.

 

[UWHabs]

The sad thing is that I felt rushed to play GC because with all of the Nerf crying, I feel they will be needlessly nerfed. While it is powerful, it is not overwhelmingly so and I believe a competent player can fend off a strong military opponent.

It's sad because I don't remember the cries for nerfs for any other civ but Hungary. Are they the only two people have thought were overwhelmingly "broken"? I am relatively new to these forums, joining up around Gathering Storm, so I have no idea. I remember people complained heartedly about how weak England, Canada, and Georgia used to appear. They eventually got buffed and Hungary got nerfed.

Where does it end? Should we expect the devs to do a pass and start rebalancing the civs that rank highly in our various forum competitions? Isn't placing highly a sign the civ might be too powerful?

Nah, at various times a ton of civs have gotten cries for nerfing. Scythia started with a broken horse economy, Australia had an even better bonus than they still have. Korea in the previews had +6 Seowons but I think they fixed that to +4 before release. Other R+F civs weren't really unbalanced, but the governors have certainly been shaken up because they're too strong.

But the game is definitely due for a full pass over all the civs. Some things for Colombia could certainly be nerfed a little bit, but for sure they're not the only civ that could be taken down a notch.