Why should we? If we've managed to build up a trust by sharing techs up to that point, can we not feel sure that they will share Theology with us once they get it?
Grand Strategy Thread
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
assuming things are still going well with FREE at that point, it won't matter who does which side of the tree… because we'll still be trading. If we're worried about delay, then we'll just make sure we put Theology on our side of the proposal, and I can't imagine any reason FREE would object to that.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
If we're worried about delay, then we'll just make sure we put Theology on our side of the proposal, and I can't imagine any reason FREE would object to that.
Because they might have the same idea...
Well, we'll see.
donsig
Low level intermediary
But if we're still trading techs at that point then we'd have to give them theology even if we think they are trying for the Chapel.
Speaking of ideas, I had a doozy this morning and was all hyped up to share it then a bad day at work drained me. Here's the idea anyway without the hype.
I was trying to figure out how we could boost our workforce and wondering how many workers SABER has at this point. I was lamenting the lack of information we have about them then suddenly realized we (think) we have an outline of their landmass. We also have Aigburth's map. Could we not flesh that map out and use it to simulate the starting positions of each team and run simulations to try to get a handle on where they are and what choices they may have made? We could give our focus on scientific research a whole new meaning by running these simulations and we may just learn some things to help us stay a step ahead of everyone. The more Chamsuri maps of FREEland the more we can figure out about all the other landmasses. I've never used the editor to do something like this. Can anyone who has done this sort of thing tell us whether the effort might be worthwhile?
hmm...The idea is a noble one, but I think we might have to settle for the advantage of knowing the map (thanks to Aigburth's great map effort). There are too many uncertain factors and choices for the other teams to make to benefit from such a simulation attempt imo.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
and we *know* that they dont' all have the same food in the same place - just looking at FREE's land gives us that. Same shape it looks like - but not the same land.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
Indeed. Same shape, same tiles, but different resources. It also looks like FREE's capital is in a different location.
Btw, FREE has Gems and Spices, so probably we can trade 1 lux. I am going to guess that the team on our other side has Dyes and 1 lux we don't have, etc. So there'll be 5 luxes in the world, each shared by two neighbors.
Btw, FREE has Gems and Spices, so probably we can trade 1 lux. I am going to guess that the team on our other side has Dyes and 1 lux we don't have, etc. So there'll be 5 luxes in the world, each shared by two neighbors.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
unless there is a central island with 3 luxes and all the coal and oil in the world. Am guessing that saltpeter is pretty well distributed, cause it's important for several UU's (ours, Ottomans)
donsig
Low level intermediary
I have a different guess: we all have gems and a monopoly on another lux. That accounts for six luxuries. Where might the other two be? Given the shape of our world there can be no central island, but if our land mass theory is correct, we each have (identical) large islands to the SE and NW. It just so happens we can't see the center of the island from the sea:
Could there be hidden riches in the darkness? There should be five such islands in the world. We may find similar islands once we explore to the NE and SW.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Both interesting theories!
Only one way to get answers... more exploring!!
Although, I will say, it DOES sound like Rik Meleet to hide some goodies on those tiny islands. Would make things strategically interesting, as holding those small islands could prove tricky.
But, those Islands will be strategic whether or not they have bonus resources… just as Naval bases and airpower launching grounds.
Boy… I REALLY hope we get the Great Lighthouse…
Only one way to get answers... more exploring!!
Although, I will say, it DOES sound like Rik Meleet to hide some goodies on those tiny islands. Would make things strategically interesting, as holding those small islands could prove tricky.
But, those Islands will be strategic whether or not they have bonus resources… just as Naval bases and airpower launching grounds.
Boy… I REALLY hope we get the Great Lighthouse…
I think this is the place to discuss this:
What is team FREE heading for?
They do some strange city placements, settling on a wheat and almost ICSing their core...
The only rational reason that comes to my mind is a 100k attempt (or just to confuse the Russians...).
But they did not start on any cultural buildings yet. Being SCI AGR would explain why they spare early temples but they had some time to build libs already...
Maybe they build granaries first? As a fallback if they fail to build the Prymides (which is also essential for 100k imo)?
Are they heading for ToA? But to delay Education and deny double culture by hand built temples would be a bad move, right?
Do we know how many towns they own? They can't occupy the whole island by now, can they?
Are there any other explanations for such a dense city placement in the core?
Why do they mine the tile 2NW of the wheat? Needed production for a core town?
Good thing Chamsuri stayed around to report these strange actions...
And the most important question:
If they are going for 100k, how do we react?
What is team FREE heading for?
They do some strange city placements, settling on a wheat and almost ICSing their core...
The only rational reason that comes to my mind is a 100k attempt (or just to confuse the Russians...).
But they did not start on any cultural buildings yet. Being SCI AGR would explain why they spare early temples but they had some time to build libs already...
Maybe they build granaries first? As a fallback if they fail to build the Prymides (which is also essential for 100k imo)?
Are they heading for ToA? But to delay Education and deny double culture by hand built temples would be a bad move, right?
Do we know how many towns they own? They can't occupy the whole island by now, can they?
Are there any other explanations for such a dense city placement in the core?
Why do they mine the tile 2NW of the wheat? Needed production for a core town?
Good thing Chamsuri stayed around to report these strange actions...
And the most important question:
If they are going for 100k, how do we react?
Interesting thoughts Paul! I would think Pyramids are only essential if you going to pop rush all those culture buildings in which case they wouldn't be researching Republic, is cash rushing feasible for 100k?
I did a quick test to see how many cities could be squeezed onto the island given the cites we currently know about: -
Thats 57 cities, I started some rough calculations as to how long it would take to reach 100k culture given various combinations of culture buildings: -
This of course ignores culture doubling and any culture from palace, FP and Wonders but in any case 57 cities doesn't seem eneogh for a mass culture rush.
Perhaps they plan on conquering more cities or feel they will be secure eneogh on the island to ride out the 100 turns or so. Plus we shouldn't forget they need double the culture of the nearest rival for the 100k condition to be triggered.
Hmmm I really shouldn't work from home
I did a quick test to see how many cities could be squeezed onto the island given the cites we currently know about: -
Thats 57 cities, I started some rough calculations as to how long it would take to reach 100k culture given various combinations of culture buildings: -
This of course ignores culture doubling and any culture from palace, FP and Wonders but in any case 57 cities doesn't seem eneogh for a mass culture rush.
Perhaps they plan on conquering more cities or feel they will be secure eneogh on the island to ride out the 100 turns or so. Plus we shouldn't forget they need double the culture of the nearest rival for the 100k condition to be triggered.
Hmmm I really shouldn't work from home
I admit this does not make too much sense... but which explanation does make sense?
What's ICSing the core in the Ancient Times good for?
Settling on the wheat? 
I mean do they want to annoy us?
I'm starting to become angry over this... 
What's ICSing the core in the Ancient Times good for?
Settling on the wheat? I mean do they want to annoy us?
I'm starting to become angry over this...
donsig
Low level intermediary
Maybe we are not looking at their core. I don't think we've found their capitol yet, have we? We know they didn't get the exact same (relative) start we did. Perhaps they started more to the south or west of their landmass than we did.
Is there any way we can boost production of the Torch?
I mean, joining workers, improving more tiles there?
Chopping is a no no for wonders in Conquest right?
donsig
Low level intermediary
I think we've got The Admiralty optimal for now. We've added two workers to get it to size 6. I think we'd have to clear jungle in order to get any more shields.
ICS doesn't seem to quite explain the placement of Sugar-Free-Wheat or, more importantly, that worker mining the plains north of that town.
ICS will be very powerful for them, being SCI and AGRO. I'm a little scaredby it.
An attempt at 100k would be easy for us thwart, as we'll have warning. They can't move the culture slider, after all
If we see their cpt increasing substantially, we'll know that we need to build some temples and libraries to raise their bar.
ICS will be very powerful for them, being SCI and AGRO. I'm a little scaredby it.
An attempt at 100k would be easy for us thwart, as we'll have warning. They can't move the culture slider, after all
If we see their cpt increasing substantially, we'll know that we need to build some temples and libraries to raise their bar.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
Returning to the discussion about the Republic, here's a little comparison I made with CivAssist 2: despotism against republic, with and without FP in The Silo:
I put republic at 20% lux tax to reflect that it cannot use MPs. With 20% lux tax it seems we generate about as much happiness as with 10% +MPs under despotism. I put both governments at the science rate where we run a slight deficit.
Conclusions:
- The FP doesn't matter much at this stage (it will become a bit more relevant as we found more cities, but not a whole lot).
- There's little difference between republic and despotism in beaker output. This is mostly due to the high unit cost of republic. We have (turn 86) 31 units: 15 warriors, 13 workers, 2 galleys and a settler. With 11 towns we get 11 units free of upkeep and the remaining 20 cost 2 gpt each, for 40 gpt total. We can improve the economy of republic by growing our towns (a city gets 3 units free of upkeep) and by reducing our number of warrior, or at least not building any more.
All in all it seems to me that republic is better than despotism, even at this stage. The FP doesn't make such a huge difference that we need to postpone the revolution for it. I think therefore that a revolution quickly after building the Torch would be most beneficial. Growing a few town to size 7 right after the revolution would help a lot.
In anarchy, I think we can support towns up to size 5 at no food loss (1 citizen born content, 2 content by luxes, 1 entertainer eating the food surplus, which makes the 5th citizen content as well). Larger towns need a food bonus or will starve. Meaning we need to prevent The Treasury from growing, and build a worker from The Admiralty (right after The Torch). The Silo should be able to hold out with the aid of the wheat tile (it will lose 1 fpt, so I'll grow the food box a bit). TC will probably be ok with all the food, or alternatively we can postpone the revolution for a turn or two to train a settler.
I put republic at 20% lux tax to reflect that it cannot use MPs. With 20% lux tax it seems we generate about as much happiness as with 10% +MPs under despotism. I put both governments at the science rate where we run a slight deficit.
Conclusions:
- The FP doesn't matter much at this stage (it will become a bit more relevant as we found more cities, but not a whole lot).
- There's little difference between republic and despotism in beaker output. This is mostly due to the high unit cost of republic. We have (turn 86) 31 units: 15 warriors, 13 workers, 2 galleys and a settler. With 11 towns we get 11 units free of upkeep and the remaining 20 cost 2 gpt each, for 40 gpt total. We can improve the economy of republic by growing our towns (a city gets 3 units free of upkeep) and by reducing our number of warrior, or at least not building any more.
All in all it seems to me that republic is better than despotism, even at this stage. The FP doesn't make such a huge difference that we need to postpone the revolution for it. I think therefore that a revolution quickly after building the Torch would be most beneficial. Growing a few town to size 7 right after the revolution would help a lot.
In anarchy, I think we can support towns up to size 5 at no food loss (1 citizen born content, 2 content by luxes, 1 entertainer eating the food surplus, which makes the 5th citizen content as well). Larger towns need a food bonus or will starve. Meaning we need to prevent The Treasury from growing, and build a worker from The Admiralty (right after The Torch). The Silo should be able to hold out with the aid of the wheat tile (it will lose 1 fpt, so I'll grow the food box a bit). TC will probably be ok with all the food, or alternatively we can postpone the revolution for a turn or two to train a settler.
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