Great Library Immortal-Diety Level Possible?

[WarpCircuits]

I just joined the forum, and it was because I considered this a nice community and I had an important question. This being that In CIV 5 Diety/Immortal games, it is almost impossible to get the Great Library even with tree chopping tech (Mining) before. So to say, there was one time I got it on Diety and that was the one game I beat (Found ruins that gave culture, was poland, rushed into classical, rushed liberty, finisher with great engineer ) Sadly, it seems impossible for this to repeat, and I dislike using god tier civs (Venice and Germany are my favorites.) I have attempted many strategies, and it would appear that Emperor onward the Great Library is as good as gone. As I have not yet found any, I am looking for anyones strategies for getting the GL in Immortal/Diety because it is the one CIV handicap I can't win without. (Ok, I mean, settler and chieftan I can win just by denouncing everyone I don't like till DoW but post that, its a NAY ((Except for when I play Babylon, which is OP and wins Diety with little effort)) )

 

[jubafisher]

Immortal & Deity A.I. starts with pottery already discovered... which is why it seems impossible. When you research pottery, they are already on Writing.

 

[sun8119]

GL is very hard to get on deity and smart players do not even go for it. And seriously you do not even need GL to win. The best you can do is to have 1-2 caravans to AI which will give you 8-10 spt (deity) which gives you a great boost in the early stages of your game.

 

[b7fanatix]

I managed it a couple of times on Immortal, but I soon realised it's not worth building a strategy around it at immortal + deity.

The thing is, to reliably get it, you'd have to build the thing so fast, you wouldn't have time to research Pottery + Writing + Calendar. Why is it important to finish Calendar before GL completes? Because then you can choose "Philosophy" as your free tech, and immediately start on National College. Without Calendar you'd only be able to get free tech worth half as many beakers.

On Empreror and below, the strategy i use is generally GL, then NC, both done by turns 55-60. Then i found 2nd and 3rd cities with a tech lead already established as well as good BPT.

If I wasn't able to grab Philosophy as a free tech, the whole strategy falls down.

 

[KingKong76]

seems to me very unlikely, and I cant see why it would be crucial... think I stoped building that GL at King... at least last few games I played at King...

 

[noonex]

At least on Immortal - it depends on priorities of other civs. I did it at least twice on Large pangea, so it is possible

 

[phillipwyllie]

Possible but very improbable. I've seen a Immortal Gandhi pump out the GL on t29. In saying that there is a deity level Spain save somewhere in these forums with GBR. If you move your starting settler to settle it then you can get the GL.
Its probably down to the RNG, if the AI gets writing in a ruin it will probably go for the GL. Considering it gets 2 workers half it's tiles will be improved by this time.

 

[chuckh89]

How is it possible?
2 ways I have done it on Diety, and I have done it many times on Immortal

But like others have said "You might not even want to try...??" because when you get the setup required (Which is awesome, and rare) you probably don't want to waste it on a failed early attempt at a wonder if things don't go your way.

First of all to even have a chance, your going to have to pop a culture Ruin, and at least one population ruin. Obviously a Tech. Ruin would also help,.. Pottery great, and Writing would be the ultimate, and a milestone that might signal that there is a possibility to succeed at a Diety GL build. Social Policies required=Tradition opener, and Aristocracy.

2 ways

What I had..
1) Lake Victoria with great production sources, I think I had 3 pastures and 2 copper either within borders, or 1 tile away from my capital.

Yes, Lake Victoria. BUT I would say...Major Population Source is requirement. Maybe a early Pantheon "Sun God" with multiple wheat would work also...you get the point!

Grow as big a you can,...Then once you have Writing, "Force" production for the GL which includes Starving your city (Even if you lose population).

-

What I had..
2) Settle on Grassland Masonry Hil, and bought 2 tiles to acquire second Masonry. One wheat, 2 pastures, and 1 Stone. Early Pantheon,..Monument of the Gods

Monument of the Gods?? 15% toward Ancient/Medieval Wonders...That is going to kill your game once you hit Renaissance! For Diety,...I would say YES. But it is very possible to make a run on other wonders (Snowball effect) even on Immortal which would outshine any late game pantheon.

This also requires Tech. Ruin help of Calendar or Masonry,...another would be great as well. AND, you have to acquire enough money to "Buy" Stone Works immediately.

It is the stack of 2 Masonry, Stone Works, Aristocracy, and Monument of the Gods that gives you a fighting chance for the GL.

-

Picking your opponents weak in the "Wonder Building" department will also help your chances, but that normally throws warmongers into the game.

So many intangibles,...I know!

Advice,...Don't plan on trying for the GL,...BUT, if the perfect scenario falls into your lap then you might want to make a run for it,...even if it is just to say "I did it!"

I managed it a couple of times on Immortal, but I soon realised it's not worth building a strategy around it at immortal + deity.

The thing is, to reliably get it, you'd have to build the thing so fast, you wouldn't have time to research Pottery + Writing + Calendar. Why is it important to finish Calendar before GL completes? Because then you can choose "Philosophy" as your free tech, and immediately start on National College. Without Calendar you'd only be able to get free tech worth half as many beakers.

Deity is a different animal,...But playing Immortal, don't underestimate the power of the GL if you take Drama and Poetry (No Calendar)

I agree, the best strategy is Philosophy then immediately build National College, BUT...

It is not unrealistic to get 2 cities out (With Monuments) before you produce the GL.

Drama and Poetry, and Philosophy are both worth the same amount of Science (So, your not getting ripped off!).

If your going for the GL then your in probably going Tradition, and you have probably worked your way down to Legalism by this point, which means you immediately have 2 amphitheaters. And in the early game +2 culture is a big boost, which helps you close out Tradition before your opponents. Major Snowball effect,...Happiness from Monarchy (now I can build a big capital w/o limitations, Now Landed elite 10% growth and most important..Closing out Tradition (15% Growth and Aqueducts) - If your playing Casimir (Poland) it almost smarter to take Drama and Poetry because your going to close Tradition even before you could possibly build the NC.

Most Important part of acquiring the GL....??? Your opponents didn't get it, So now you have a fighting chance for "Oracle".

When I get the GL on Immortal it is not uncommon to take Drama and Poetry (Start Researching Philosophy), Build 1/2 of Parthenon, Philosophy acquired (Build Oracle), then finish second half of Parthenon. Not Common,...But I have gotten the GL, Stonehenge, Oracle, Parthenon all in the same game on Immortal with the #2 setup.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I kind of wonder about the usefulness of the GL. I mean, it's much better in the long run to try and take ToA, HG, and Petra. Oracle isn't really going early so you iirc have until around 100 to make it

 

[CraigMak]

I'd rather make a settler anyways... Forget about GL. It's the biggest noob trap ever.

 

[Sessy]

I believe it only works if you have spain as the second city on solomon's mines and get a writing ruin before T20. Of course you can chop all the trees you have and with some luck get it, but in those situations I don't think GL's benefits make up for the lost opportunity cost. Spain's free settler and solomon's 12 hammers doesn't hamper your capital development.

 

[phillipwyllie]

...Spain's free settler and solomon's 12 hammers doesn't hamper your capital development...

If you manage to settle KSM as Spain early then I'd suggest going for ToA rather than GL. I once had 100 excess food in Madrid thanks to the ToA. A new record for the Immortal AI.

 

[Sessy]

If you manage to settle KSM as Spain early then I'd suggest going for ToA rather than GL. I once had 100 excess food in Madrid thanks to the ToA. A new record for the Immortal AI.

that's assuming you're gearing up for a archer rush or get an archery ruin. considering that GL usually goes at T27 and requires writing, it's definitely harder than ToA. whether it's so much better compared to ToA, I'm not sure. the 10% food is flat, not excess, is that right?

 

[phillipwyllie]

that's assuming you're gearing up for a archer rush or get an archery ruin. considering that GL usually goes at T27 and requires writing, it's definitely harder than ToA. whether it's so much better compared to ToA, I'm not sure. the 10% food is flat, not excess, is that right?

The ToA multiplies food from terrain and buildings, which the maritime CS food bonus is a part of(it gets added to your cities base tile). I consider the Gl a waste of time now. I have a save where I can settle Madrid on KSM and doing the GL->NC->settle 4 cities didn't get me to Education any faster.

 

[Myth and Legend]

On Deity you need:

-salt/lake victoria
-Pottery/Writing from ruin
-many forests
-easy access for workers to be stolen

and it's still such a gamble and waste of early resources that it doesn't make sense to go for it. Rush Temple of Artemis or Hanging Gardens if you want, they are both better than the GL.

 

[ArguCa]

Like phillipwyllie already said "Possible but very improbable" You need extremely lucky starting position etc.

 

[Sessy]

The ToA multiplies food from terrain and buildings, which the maritime CS food bonus is a part of(it gets added to your cities base tile). I consider the Gl a waste of time now. I have a save where I can settle Madrid on KSM and doing the GL->NC->settle 4 cities didn't get me to Education any faster.

Lol I think GL delayed your settlers. that's why I think it's better to get it as spain in your second city (GL should be in Barcelona, right? )

in terms of the flat bonus to food, I only think of it as really good when you have more than 60 flat food, that's pretty hard unless you run cargo ships. I prefer to compare it to HG, but the benefits in training ranged units is better than a free garden, plus 10% is all cities.

 

[Redaxe]

I got GL once on Diety. It was one of those legendary starts that someone put up for Spain. Basically you start 5 tiles or so away from the Great Barrier Reef.

 

[JohnMK]

Might be slightly more useful with France's capital theming bonus. I had an Emperor-level game as France once where the extra tourism from the correctly-themed GL (+4, which became +8 with Aesthetics finished) contributed to an earlier culture victory than I would have had otherwise. But if my start had not been perfect, and my luck been good, I wouldn't have bothered trying. As others have mentioned it comes with quite the opportunity cost.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Certainly possible on immortal, and i can even give you a relativly stratihforward strategy that can work to pretty much ensure it, if you have the right land for it.

Afcourse, getting great lib on immortal for me is situational, say as Korea youll deffinatly want it.

A good time to get great liberary on Immortal is around turn 30-35. Even then at times the Ai might do it before turn 30 but thats not too coman. I feel confident at aiming towards turn 35 usually on immortal.

An easy strategy? Afcourse depending on the situation there can be different optimal paths, but typicly if i wanted great liberary as korea i would look out for a site with some fair food, a minimal amount of hills, but preferably with 4 or more forests nearby in the 1st and or second ring.

The great library costs about 185 hammers. As such its not so hard to a good part of the hammers away for it. Typicly in that strategy i would go mining-pottery-writing, and i would build 2 workers. It would not take too much time for 2 workers to chop something from 80 to 120 hammers of the great library away themselfs. If you start chopping 2 turns before you start on the great lib, then with 2 workers you can have added 80 hammers in 4 turns. That leaves a 105 hammers, say youre city had 9 hamers then you would have reduced the time from 21 turns to 12 turns, certainly that makes up easily for the time you needed to research mining right?

Say that you have 6 forrest nearby. you could chop for 120 hammers over 7 turns. That would leave 65 hammers for the city to produce over 7 turns, with other words 10 hammers will do, so with 6 forrests and 2 workers (which you can easily have ready by the time you get to writing) you could reduce the whoile construction to 7 turns.
And typicly i'd say you'd gain a few turns because writing will reasearch a little bit faster some turns later typicly because of pop growth, and typicly youre early worker can help you grow a little bit faster.

That said you might opt to take 1 worker from a city state and only build 1 worker yourself, and maybe get some scouts instead. If youre scouts are going to pop up a pop hut, a culture hut or god forbid a usefull tech early on then indeed it can be extremely helpfull. The 15% reduction for ancient wonders in tradition should bring the cost back to something like 158 hammers? Thats quite usefull if youre going to chop.
Besides that getting gold can help a lot in growth afcourse and getting maybe getting a few additional forrest tiles. Besides that the scouts sure can help later in defending youre workers, and it's not unseen afaik to snatch a worker about at the right time when you would need him.

Afcoure, this is certainly not the only way or nessecarily best way in which you can get the great library of immortal, though i'm fairly confident that this aproach would often work quite reliably. Ill just note that i think in genneral one needs to aim at around turn 35. As for the ai i guess it's depended on the civ and their production whether theyll go for it, demographics be youre friend.

Certainly some starts will allow you to ramp of production very fast. But it's not that easy to get writing say at turn 20, and then you'd need to average about 12 hammers over 15 turns to build it.