Great merchants are useless?

[avl8]

What we got here?

Great merchant can provide 3 things for us:

1. Tile improvement
Great merchant can build Customs house improvement on a tile. Gets us +4 gold if while citizen is working it. On a river tiles its +5 gold.
Well, trade post will provide +2 gold.
Is +2 gold bonus is a big deal?

For me its a crappy option as it sounds right now.

Of course we can get some good income from a gold specialised city through all available +gold multipliers and +4 gold tile will net us some cash in a long run.
Of course a river plains 2f1g becomes 2f5g tile which is nice.

By the way, can we put a customs house improvement on a river plains wheat 3f1h1g? Or upon a cows/sheeps tiles?

Plus its pretty fast compared to a simple trade post, and doesnt require Trapping.
Still sounds like a weak option for an amount of GPP spent.

Maybe I am missing something with it?

2. Trade mission.
So he goes to any CS on the map (nearest is the best since it makes maintance cost for great merchant minimized), and according to the numbers ive found he bring us some gold depending on current era PLUS about 30 influence points with the CS.

The numbers were as they follow:
"The money gained from performing a diplomatic mission is 350 + (50 * <era number>) where era number is just a serial number starting with 0 for the ancient era, or in other words:

Era Gold
--------------------
Ancient 350
Classical 400
Medieval 450
Renaissance 500
Industrial 550
Modern 600
Future 650"
Got it here

According to that source THESE NUMBERS are CONSTANTS, not connected with game speed options.

So trade mission means a bunch of gold we get PLUS a bunch of gold we saved from sponsoring a CS.
Assuming one cant get a great merchant in ancient era, its like 500+ gold PLUS bonuses from an allied CS.

Hmm, if these numbers are true constants, on a quick game speed it can be a nice cash boost. Some bonus units, useful buildings, luxuries bought from AI or a research agreement.

Compared to bonus beakers from GS its still a weak option in my eyes.
Am i missing something with it?

3. GM can start GA.
Depending on population and number of cities it can be a real powerhouse option, a significant boost to both production and income.

The bad news are any other great person can provide that GA.


Onto the cool strategies
I can hardly imagine some ICS player will rush a great merchant over GS. Bulbing things are vastly superior that rush-buying a building for a decent GPP cost.

So I cant imagine a fast cultural victory that involves some GM action. GSs and GAs are just great.

Even warmonger-loving players wont get GMs other that from a random Educated Elite CS which is weird case if someone goes to a world warfare game.

Maybe everyone is missing some true power of a great merchant strategy?

Inspired by sylvanllewelyn write up about Commerce social policy game I imagine some uses of a GM but still it looks like a weaker option compared to GSs/GEs.

Ofc there are pointless CSs who wants to see alive great merchant sometimes...
But overall GMs seem to be a definite weakling ...

Is it true?

 

[Slowpoke]

Yup, vanilla Great merchants and artists are both worthless. GA em both. In Mega Mod, you get +12 from custom houses and +15 culture from landmarks tho

 

[Wurlf]

You can always build the custom house on a desert or tundra tile which cannot be worked other ways.

when I used GM for diplomatic mission, i always tried to get a CS a far as possible from my capital -some text somewhere hinted me to do so- and regularly got around 1500 gold. this does not fit your chart though... i usually play prince or king -so far- in epic or marathon, dunno if these change anything.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Yup, vanilla Great merchants and artists are both worthless. GA em both. In Mega Mod, you get +12 from custom houses and +15 culture from landmarks tho

Great Artists aren't worthless; the diplo hit from stealing your neighbor's land seems negligible. Not that they're tremendous or anything, but they're not actually bad like both Merchant Specialists and Great Merchants.

 

[stormerne]

Yes the most profitable use is in response to a CS who wants to see a GM. But that request is something over which you have no control.

And if you're regularly popping GPs, the golden age option may be just 3 turns by that time - though better than a slap in the face.

The best GM, in my opinion, is one gifted by a CS. He can stay right there and I convert him immediately into a trade mission.

So overall, distinctly weak and disappointing.

 

[Paradigne]

I guess I only ever used mine in the Renaissance period as I've only seen the 500 gold. That plus the 250 gold it would cost for the 30 influence brings the total to 750 gold. Not to mention the benefits for at least haveing a friendly CS.

I usually use mine on a CS that has low ally status for the boost and buy a unit/building with the gold.

 

[alpaca]

Yup, vanilla Great merchants and artists are both worthless. GA em both. In Mega Mod, you get +12 from custom houses and +15 culture from landmarks tho

+15 culture is way over the top. Maybe +6 or +7. Getting culture outside of buildings at all is a very nice boost if you go for a strategy where you use some culture. One culture per turn is definitely worth more than 1 gold per turn if you consider the high production cost of cultural buildings (and that you can put the landmark into a city which will later have a broadcast tower).

Great Merchants are the weakest of the bunch, although 750 gold isn't that bad in a non-ICS game which doesn't have ridiculous amounts of money, but they are all kind of dominated by the Great Scientist. The Great Engineer is good, too, but you rarely get them because of the fairly low number of Engineer slots.

 

[avl8]

Does it always 350+50*era?

Is the any distance factor bonus for gold or influence?
In civ4 exploring with GMs were kinda fun and profitable

 

[CPCMaxwell]

1. Tile improvement
Great merchant can build Customs house improvement on a tile. Gets us +4 gold if while citizen is working it. On a river tiles its +5 gold.
Well, trade post will provide +2 gold.
Is +2 gold bonus is a big deal?

This is the raw income. Add Market (+25%), Bank (+25%) and Stock Exchange (+33%), and a river Trade Post nets 5,64g, where a river customs hous nets 9,4g.

That makes it a pretty good tile, but yeah, not enough to go WHOAAAAA.

 

[Rathelon]

Great Artists aren't worthless; the diplo hit from stealing your neighbor's land seems negligible.

The one time I did that, the person I stole land from declared war on me.

 

[Willowmound]

The numbers were as they follow:
"The money gained from performing a diplomatic mission is 350 + (50 * <era number>) where era number is just a serial number starting with 0 for the ancient era, or in other words:

Era Gold
--------------------
Ancient 350
Classical 400
Medieval 450
Renaissance 500
Industrial 550
Modern 600
Future 650"
Got it here

According to that source THESE NUMBERS are CONSTANTS, not connected with game speed options.

This can't be right, as I've gotten both 800 and 900 from late-game trade missions. On large/epic.

 

[stormerne]

This is the raw income. Add Market (+25%), Bank (+25%) and Stock Exchange (+33%), and a river Trade Post nets 5,64g, where a river customs hous nets 9,4g.

That makes it a pretty good tile, but yeah, not enough to go WHOAAAAA.

I think the figures are 5.49 and 9.15 giving a bonus of 3.66 of customs house over trading post. Eventually. But no matter.

If it's around for, say, 50 turns with just a market, 100 turns with a bank and another 100 turns with a stock exchange, and you work it consistently all that time, you might get a bonus of 800 gold from the tile over time. Or you can take a lump sum straightaway. Little wonder people do!

 

[bryanw1995]

yeah, you only want to steal land from weaker civs or ones that you were planning to dow anyway.

 

[PScirocco]

If the social policy that gives +1 science to trading posts also applies to settled GP (with a larger bonus of course, say +5 science), then that would give people more incentive to settle their GP.

 

[cman2010]

I have gotten more gold than you mentioned for using a great mercant in renasance era I have gotten over 1000 gold many times, but yeah overall it seems lackluster compaired to scientist that you can save and then rush into a new era with.

 

[atteSmythe]

Depends when you get them. If I get one at all, it tends to be late in the game. In my current game, a golden age increases my per-turn income by over 500, so burning him for a golden age would be the best option even if it was only for 3 turns. Early, the gold + CS rep can be very powerful, however.

And, yeah, would be a lot nicer if the custom house got the trade posts' +1 science from Rationalism, too.

 

[Antarion]

you asked us if your missing something and i tell you, YOU DO!

1st build them on wheat or sheeps, you cant build trading posts there so its a netplus of 4 not 2. also dont forget you get a double bonus by GAs on tiles which prod and gold! of course the building of GMerchants are best placed in your capital under Social Policy of Economy!


2nd trade missions are worthful if you lack good relations with CS and need some money. they are not useful if you can get more gold by your GAge then by a trade mission. its your job to see what is best!

and i dont understand why you underestimate GArtists, they are worth a Opera House or Museum. With Democracy, Erimitage and Broadcast Towers they offer 20 culture per turn, and you call this bad if the standard maximum is just 60 culture per town (without many wonders)

 

[Antarion]

Depends when you get them. If I get one at all, it tends to be late in the game. In my current game, a golden age increases my per-turn income by over 500, so burning him for a golden age would be the best option even if it was only for 3 turns. Early, the gold + CS rep can be very powerful, however.

And, yeah, would be a lot nicer if the custom house got the trade posts' +1 science from Rationalism, too.

i rarely tech to rationalism tree, i prefer piety in 90% of all games.

 

[Varanid]

I've actually been trying to go without piety just because it made culture wins too easy, so I'm doing rationalism now.
Still makes it real easy cause I get to broadcast towers much quicker, and well, the tech lead helps me maintain peace (Sending GDRs against a place that's still at tanks+infantry=slaughter).

Great artist I'm torn on; sometimes they're *great* to grab a resource (sure, I'll take that 8 aluminium hex please!).
But none of the tile improvements save the citadel (situationally) seem all that great to me.

 

[kossmikman]

GA are awesome if you like trolling the AIs like me