Great Mod, just one serious design flaw

ezolak

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
81
Long time FFH2 player who just recently discovered RifE, and I am very impressed. Didn't know FFH could be improved upon, to be honest.

As with any great game, there is still room for improvement. I thought I would give my input on a serious design flaw. Yes, I know the game needs to be challenging, especially for veteran players. But it shouldn't be arbitrarily unplayable, and barbarians as is make it so. I see 3 major problems: (1) in the early game they are so far superior to anything the player the can build that there is often no getting rid of them; (2) they can wipe out opposing civs so that what was supposed to be a 6-player game becomes a 3-player one with all the unbalanced lack of challenge that presents; (3) the Muris clan goblin wolf rider can easily destroy your first warrior defending your capital if that event occurs very early. The problem is of course exacerbated by the AI exploring every lair and goblin fort it comes across and thus generating powerful barbs that neither it nor the player can handle.

I don't mean to inflate these problems - I turned off Savages and Demons and while they still appear, rarely are they such a problem that I need to restart the game. However, I hated to turn them off, since normally I would prefer to play with barbs on, and as I mentioned it doesn't completely solve the problem.

For what it's worth, my advice is to tone down barbarians considerably. They should be a challenge, but the regular units shouldn't be beyond anything the players can create. Occasional Oh S**T units should exist, but not every barb should be an Oh S**T unit. For example, a regular ogre that can appear on turn 50, when all the player can build is warriors, will walk up to his city and quickly ranged attack his way up to +60% or +80% strength, at which point the player could easily lose 8 warriors trying and failing to kill it (I know this from experience). Some players will like that extra challenge - it is not my idea of fun and I specifically tried to turn off barbarians in order to avoid it. I would also add a condition to the Muris clan goblin event to not happen in the first 50 turns. If a player doesn't have 2 warriors defending his capital by then, he is SOL.

Again, I know others will disagree with me. Keep in mind that when it comes to design issues, this is largely a matter of opinion and style. However, I have tried to provide what I think are reasonable concerns for my opinions. I'm new to this mod and this forum, so I apologize if this has been discussed before, but I welcome any discussion.

Above all, I want to reiterate that this mod is excellent and I am merely nitpicking here. I don't want to come across as a troll, merely wanted to give some suggestions.

Cheers, Zolak
 
We've arrived at these barbarian strengths quite deliberately. At one point they were much stronger; Before that, it was the animals that were much stronger. Their point is to create a hinterlands-style mechanic, one in which early expansion is quite dangerous. As such, they achieve the goal quite well. AI can be improved in how it handles it, yes, but in most of my games they perform at least passably (I don't see so many dying off, at least; put it that way).

RifE is no longer undergoing development at all; There are plans for mechanical addons at some point, but they are on hold while E'iten development is underway.
 
on this last subject Valkrionn:

any PUBLIC thread being updated somewhere with spicy news / development... about E'iten?
 
I appreciate the quick reply, and I didn't realize there was no more development underway. I like the idea of limiting expansion. I'm not sure this was the right way to do it, considering that excessively powerful barbarians effect far more than just expansion. The human player can easily lose their capital city within the first few hundred turns through no fault of their own. Again, just sharing my own views, and I understand that without any further development there's probably no point to continuing this thread.
 
on this last subject Valkrionn:

any PUBLIC thread being updated somewhere with spicy news / development... about E'iten?

Not yet, no. Not public, at least. Threads in two different members-only forums, though. :p

As for news: Shoggi, Jheral, and myself are all working on different components. Mine will be Perks. What perks are, not going to say. :goodjob:

I appreciate the quick reply, and I didn't realize there was no more development underway. I like the idea of limiting expansion. I'm not sure this was the right way to do it, considering that excessively powerful barbarians effect far more than just expansion. The human player can easily lose their capital city within the first few hundred turns through no fault of their own. Again, just sharing my own views, and I understand that without any further development there's probably no point to continuing this thread.

There are a few other ways to do it, yes, but none that were both satisfactory and could be done without hogging even more resources. We went in the simpler direction.

E'iten will have a different approach to it, one that simply arises out of another mechanic.
 
Ezolak, I don't think they are so bad, at least not in the latest release. I personally play on Emperor/Immortal and I rarely have to restart a game because of them and most of the civilizations do fairly well against them early game and usually pretty well mid/late game, even so some (Kuriorates and Khazad usually - 3 times last 5 games) manage to grab more land and get ahead of me in points late game which is refreshing considering previous releases were boring once you get past the initial 300 turns. It may seem hard for you just because you are not used to the mechanics of this particular mod, there ARE quite more differences than the vanilla FFH. Some minor advices are early exploration with 2+ scouts and some melee to defend them, abuse forts and choke poitns and go for early religion heroes if no faction one available. Exploration may lead to assassin/champion/angel reward which pretty much makes barbarians experience farm and also, once properly promoted, great way of taking care of the nearby weaker civs, provided some catapult/defensive units support. Personally I almost every time go for Runes of Kilmorph, place a lot of their special mine improvements in my initial 3 cities, get the Bambur and clear the nearby lands, then switch to either Order/Emperyan or Ashen Vale and pretty much own with stacks of death.

EDIT: Actually the current issue is quite the opposite, the ANIMALS are OP big time just because they get upgraded to beast real quick and then can ravage your lands and after 2-3 promotions become unkillable. An elephant with 12+ strength, +60% from blood and a couple of promotions when the AI feeds it becomes... well, you do the mat. I'm really waiting for the capture mechanic fix because right now it really ruins half the fun for me for chasing that animal for the blood promotions.
 
Not yet, no. Not public, at least. Threads in two different members-only forums, though. :p

As for news: Shoggi, Jheral, and myself are all working on different components. Mine will be Perks. What perks are, not going to say. :goodjob:
well I suppose you mean "restricted access threads"... because I'm a member of CFC (obviously ;)) and of greyfox's forum... and no E'iten information /discussion since .. march ? january ?

well .. too bad. I'll have to wait until GoK's release and your own release to be allowed to pester you ^^
 
@Valk
Will you bring a beta of Eiten out with the release of GoK ?
Or will we have to wait long ?
I know patience is a must have but infos are really a good help. ;)
 
@Valk
Will you bring a beta of Eiten out with the release of GoK ?
Or will we have to wait long ?
I know patience is a must have but infos are really a good help. ;)

It will not come with G&K. The plan is to have each major component be released as an individual modcomp and assemble into E'iten; I hope to have the modcomp I'm working on finished by release, but between work and class it'll probably be later.
 
[OP's problems with barbarians...]

To the OP: May I suggest turning on the "No Lairs" option? I agree with you that there are simply too many barbarians at any given point in the game (and I loathe the Muris clan goblins. I actually turned off that event in the XML.). I've found that there are many benefits to having No Lairs turned on (and the Savages and Demons factions still enabled):
1) The map is not covered with hundreds of barbarians. Barbarians still appear, as do Orthus and the rest, so it's not a cakewalk (a few javelin throwers appearing near your cities before turn 100 can be a surprise). They still found cities, etc.
2) The "special" spawn groups appear more frequently because they are not voided out by all the normal barbarians standing around.
3) You don't have that nasty problem of a bandit, skeleton archer, or goblin archer just off your capital sniping at you every turn. I've never liked that, and also never liked how many forts were on the map.
4) Fewer CTD. I've found that in my games these seem to generally come from AIs raiding a GP from a lair that then fails to load properly.

To be honest, I'm not sure why I haven't seen turning on "No Lairs" recommended more often when people have barbarian issues. I've found it to be just about perfect for my play style.
 
turn off the Demons, and Savages factions, and keep the lairs on for suspense - however the lairs... sometimes an AI will explore one and release a giant mob on the world and those mobs can take down damn near the whole world.
 
To the OP: May I suggest turning on the "No Lairs" option? I agree with you that there are simply too many barbarians at any given point in the game (and I loathe the Muris clan goblins. I actually turned off that event in the XML.). I've found that there are many benefits to having No Lairs turned on (and the Savages and Demons factions still enabled):
1) The map is not covered with hundreds of barbarians. Barbarians still appear, as do Orthus and the rest, so it's not a cakewalk (a few javelin throwers appearing near your cities before turn 100 can be a surprise). They still found cities, etc.
2) The "special" spawn groups appear more frequently because they are not voided out by all the normal barbarians standing around.
3) You don't have that nasty problem of a bandit, skeleton archer, or goblin archer just off your capital sniping at you every turn. I've never liked that, and also never liked how many forts were on the map.
4) Fewer CTD. I've found that in my games these seem to generally come from AIs raiding a GP from a lair that then fails to load properly.

To be honest, I'm not sure why I haven't seen turning on "No Lairs" recommended more often when people have barbarian issues. I've found it to be just about perfect for my play style.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will try that.
 
Dead on Turn 24 from Muris Clan Goblins. Events that destroy a player through no fault of their own shouldn't exist. I am not an XML programmer... can someone explain how to turn this off?
 
Muris Clan Goblins don't normally attack the player at all, they just create a bunch of visually annoying red blobs (no art) with missing text keys that wander around uselessly and sometimes kill scouts.
 
Another way ive been circumventing the barbarian menace is to use a standard size world with 10 - 12 civ's. The "fog" will still allow about 40% of wild lands to STAY WILD and produce barbarians a good part of the game, it won't matter if 1-3 civ's get wiped and they will grow faster -

i usually have ME +3 good +3 evil +3 neutral

This allows each civ to have some growth room and at the same time minimizes barbarian devastations - there is usually more than enough room for Hyborim however Basium has the problem of occasionally being built in a city with little to no access to expansion room however this happens anyway - doing it "my way" means more people who COULD build him - too bad the AI doesn't want to put him in the "front cities" - even though its painful, i ALWAYS put basium in one of my frontal cities so he can be useful in war instead off in a little corner.
 
Muris Clan Goblins don't normally attack the player at all, they just create a bunch of visually annoying red blobs (no art) with missing text keys that wander around uselessly and sometimes kill scouts.

Apparently they do on Turn 24 when they appear adjacent to your capital and you have 1 Warrior defending it.
 
Dead on Turn 24 from Muris Clan Goblins. Events that destroy a player through no fault of their own shouldn't exist. I am not an XML programmer... can someone explain how to turn this off?

I hate the Muris Clan too -- I've seen too many civs destroyed in the first 10-20 turns. That's why I turn them off. It's very easy.

1. Access the XML file you want to edit. Assuming you have Windows 7, and your RiFE folder is in the standard location, you want to go here:
C:\Program Files (x86)\2K Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4 Complete\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Rise from Erebus\Assets\Modules\NormalModules\MoreEvents\Events\MoreEvents_CIV4EventTriggerInfos.xml

2. Open the XML file using Notepad or other word processing program.

3. Do a find for "Muris". You'll be at an entry for "EVENTTRIGGER_GOBLIN_WASTE". (It should also say "New Muris Goblin" on the EventTriggerInfo line.)

4. Find the line <iPercentGamesActive> and change the 100 to 0. This is setting the percent of games in which the Muris Clan Goblin event will appear.

5. Save, and you are done.

I personally like to change the percent games active on several events (both here and in the XML\Events folder), so that Minister Koun always appears, and the "Unique Feature" announcements don't show up, etc.
 
I hate the Muris Clan too -- I've seen too many civs destroyed in the first 10-20 turns. That's why I turn them off. It's very easy.

1. Access the XML file you want to edit. Assuming you have Windows 7, and your RiFE folder is in the standard location, you want to go here:
C:\Program Files (x86)\2K Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4 Complete\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Rise from Erebus\Assets\Modules\NormalModules\MoreEvents\Events\MoreEvents_CIV4EventTriggerInfos.xml

2. Open the XML file using Notepad or other word processing program.

3. Do a find for "Muris". You'll be at an entry for "EVENTTRIGGER_GOBLIN_WASTE". (It should also say "New Muris Goblin" on the EventTriggerInfo line.)

4. Find the line <iPercentGamesActive> and change the 100 to 0. This is setting the percent of games in which the Muris Clan Goblin event will appear.

5. Save, and you are done.

I personally like to change the percent games active on several events (both here and in the XML\Events folder), so that Minister Koun always appears, and the "Unique Feature" announcements don't show up, etc.

Do you happen to know if it's possible to make this change in a separate module, and have the change overwrite this one? I'm trying to keep my changes to the mod clean and in their own module, but I really do hate this even and think it needs to go away.
 
I've pretty much taken over the development for the mod. I'm not part of the team so I don't know about things like this. A lot of things are fixed in my fixes under "final fixes" it improves it even more.
 
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