Cakeathon

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Grievances Guide

Work in progress (need your help !)

There are still a few unknowns:
1. There is an unknown variable in the value of cities during conquest (see cities section)
2. Nukes ?
3. impact of grievances on loyalty of occupied cities
I will keep this guide updated as things are figured out.

What are grievances

Grievances are Gathering Storm's replacement for the warmongering system, It is meant to damage your relationship with other civs for being a warmonger while allowing space for the idea of retaliation.

You can see your current grievances with any other civ in the diplomacy panel and a log of all past grievances is available as well.

This guide is a collection of all the data I gathered on this new system.

Effect of grievances on relationship:

Personal grievances:
20% of their grievances towards you is converted to negative relationship
capped at -60 relationship

Grievances with other civs:
For every other living Civ they have met that you have aggrieved more than they have aggrieved you
calculate the difference between your grievances and theirs
10% of the sum of all those differences
capped at -40 relationship

note: Since grievances decay occurs for each civ individually, while 50 grievances with 6 other civs is the same as 300 grievances with 1 other civ for this calculation, the total grievances in the first example would decay 6 times faster.

Grievances per turn

Base


ancient: -10
classical: -8
medieval: -8
renaissance: -7
industrial: -6
modern: -5
atomic: -4
information: -3
future: -2

modifiers:

Grievances per turn are set to 0 while at war

Occupy their capital: 3 per turn
Occupy one of their cities: 1 per turn

note: these modifiers don't stack, if you have 5 cities it is only 1 per turn and if you also have the capital it is only 3 per turn.

Ibrahim's Capou Agha title: -1 per turn

Sources of personal grievances:

Personal grievances are grievances that only apply to one civ.

General:

denouncement: 25

refuse to make a promise: 25
cost per transgression if you do make a promise: 25

DoW against a city-state if they have at least 1 envoy: 50
DoW against a city-state if they are suzerain: 100

DoW:
Surprise: 150
Formal: 100
Joint: 100
Holy: 50
liberation: 0
reconquest: 0
protectorate: 0
colonial: 50
territorial: 75
golden age: 25
retribution: 50
ideological: 50
alliance: 0
emergency: 0

Cities:

Every city has a base value multiplied by a modifier based on casus belli.

The base value of a city is its population times 50/X. This value is capped at 50.

X is still unknown but right now the best guess is that it is based on the era and the era is based on the world most advanced civ in either tech or civics. I think it is also locked in place on the turn the declaration of war was made.

ancient: 2 (25 per pop)
classical: 3 (16.66 per pop)
medieval: 4 (12.5 per pop)
renaissance: 5 (10 per pop)
industrial: 6 (8.33 per pop)
modern: 7 (7.14 per pop)
atomic: 8 (6.25 per pop)
information: 9 (5.55 per pop)
future: 10 (5 per pop)

capture modifier(%) / Raze modifier(%)

Surprise: 150/450
Formal: 100/300
Joint: 100/300
Holy: 50/50
liberation: 100/600
reconquest: 0/0
protectorate: 100/300
colonial: 50/300
territorial: 75/150
golden age: 25/300
retribution: 50/200
ideological: 50/150
alliance: 0/300
emergency: 0/300

Note: For wars that have specific targets(example: liberation war) those modifiers ONLY apply to cities that meet the criteria, other cities are taken at formal war modifiers. Emergecies are an exception to this, its modifiers apply on all cities.

Peace treaty:

Cede: Same amount as the grievances incurred for the conquest (effectively doubles your grievances per city)
Return: Negative grievances equivalent to the grievances incurred for the conquest (net 0)

Sources of global grievances:

Global grievances refer to an action that incurs grievances with all other civs assuming they have met you.

Due to the way relationship modifiers are calculated, this can lead to extreme negative relationship with everybody if there are a lot of civs in your game but it will go back to 0 very quickly.

Take a civ's last city: 300% of that city's base value
Capture a city-state: 50
Liberate a city-state: -32

note: if upon the conquest of a civ's last city you pick the liberate option, there will be no penalty for eliminating that civ

Shared grievances:

A percentage of grievances are shared with friends and allies, only grievances related to war are shared.

ally: 50%
declared friends: 25%
defensive: 25%

note: if you eliminate a civ, all occupied cities will be instantly ceded for the purpose of shared grievances (see peace treaty section).

Summary for warmongers:

To limit grievances from war (from best to worse)

1. Civ is the target of an emergency for capturing a city you can liberate
action: join the emergency, take everything and then liberate the last city
result: no grievances, not even to the Civ you are wiping out

2. Civ has a city you can liberate
action: take everything and then liberate the last city
result: 100% with target, 25% grievances with friends, 50% with allies, 0% with everybody else

3. Civ has no city you can liberate but has a city you could loyalty-flip
action: take everything except 1 city that you can loyalty flip.
result: 100% with target, 25% grievances with friends, 50% with allies, 0% with everybody else

4. Civ has no city you can liberate and you couldn't flip any single city if it stood on it's own
action: keep the city with the lowest population for last
result: 100% with target, 25% grievances with friends, 50% with allies, population-dependant grievances with everybody else
 
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Cakeathon

Warlord
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Nov 3, 2016
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@Cakeathon some of your variables may be era based like in the old warmonger days.

I am testing for era effects, I got a late game save with suleiman, a medieval save with kupe and for ancient game I just do nubia rushes.

It doesn't actually seem to change anything beyond the decay rate.

Everything is fixed anyways with the exception of occupation and razing but era doesn't seem to matter for those, or if it does it's quite subtle.

I think the way it impacts things is with empire size, for example razing 2 cities back to back(same civ) in medieval got me 57 and 169 while razing a small 1 pop city in ancient gave me 113. Same thing with occupation.
 
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Cakeathon

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Just did a lot of testing and updated the guide. I think I'm making big progress.

Confirmed all the old casus belli modifiers are 100% still in effect which means we need to track down the base value of a city.

What I know for sure is that the base value of a city is directly tied to its population with a maximal value of 50.

For example, in the only game I have with a wide enough range of populations to test it went exactly max(population*5, 50)

However, in another game, I had cities worth 38
And in another(very early game), I had a 1 pop city worth 25 points.

I can confirm it's not tied to map speed and size. But it still could be tied to anything, global era, personal tech era(yours or theirs), world population, empire population(yours or theirs), etc.

UPDATE: Can confirm the base value of a city is its population times (50/X), X seems to be based on the era the DoW was made(maybe). need more tests, I updated the guide with a table I think might work. I need more data points to confirm.
 
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SaiH

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modifiers:

Grievances per turn are set to 0 while at war

Occupy their capital: 3 per turn
Occupy one of their cities: 1 per turn

note: these modifiers don't stack, if you have 5 cities it is only 1 per turn and if you also have the capital it is only 3 per turn.

Ibrahim's Capou Agha title: -1 per turn

So these occupation modifiers mean that grievances effectively decay less quickly.
A question is when the occupation modifier is in place. Is it linked to the -18 diplo malus for occupying one of their cities which is in place when you don't give back at least one of their cities or is it independent of that?
 

Cakeathon

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Messages
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So these occupation modifiers mean that grievances effectively decay less quickly.
A question is when the occupation modifier is in place. Is it linked to the -18 diplo malus for occupying one of their cities which is in place when you don't give back at least one of their cities or is it independent of that?

Independent, I have a game where I get -3 for holding their capital without the -18 relationship. It doesn't trigger if you got the city from somebody else and didn't liberate but otherwise you seem to always have it.
 
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Dux1

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Sep 27, 2010
Messages
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This is a great guide. I have a couple of questions, though:
  • When you talk about shared grievances, does that mean that any grievances I receive, my ally gets half of? For example, if I declare a surprise war against Korea, and Russia is my ally, does Russia receive 75 grievances with Korea for my action? Or does it work the other way (i.e., if Korea declared on me, Russia would be mad at them). Also, what does "defensive" refer to in this section? I thought defensive pacts were tied to alliances now.
  • What is "Ibrahim's Capou Agha title"?
Thanks for your work on explaining these annoyingly opaque mechanics!
 

Cakeathon

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Messages
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This is a great guide. I have a couple of questions, though:
  • When you talk about shared grievances, does that mean that any grievances I receive, my ally gets half of? For example, if I declare a surprise war against Korea, and Russia is my ally, does Russia receive 75 grievances with Korea for my action? Or does it work the other way (i.e., if Korea declared on me, Russia would be mad at them). Also, what does "defensive" refer to in this section? I thought defensive pacts were tied to alliances now.
  • What is "Ibrahim's Capou Agha title"?
Thanks for your work on explaining these annoyingly opaque mechanics!

I will explain shared grievances in the way I actually empirically see it since I cannot attest as to grievances between AIs. So shared grievances work this way: if England is allied with France and I capture an english city, France will get a % of the grievances England has towards me for occupying a city. So if that city was worth 50 grievances with England, France would get 25 towards me.

Yes, defensive pacts aren't supposed to exist anymore but there is a line of code for it for some reason. A lot of this stuff is lifted from the xml files. I imagine that if you mod defensive pacts back into the game they would be compatible with the grievance system

Ibrahim is the unique governor for the Ottomans, Capou Agha is his "title"(that's the actual name for those governor upgrades) that decreases grievances with a civ if you have him in their capital.
 
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playshogi

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Is decay of grievances one way only? The AI denounced me for +25 in my favor, and it never decayed even after the effect of the denouncement ended.
 

Victoria

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Do these help?
GRIEVANCE_MULTIPLIER_FOR_BROKEN_PROMISE" Value="200"
GRIEVANCES_ALL_PLAYERS_CITY_STATE_CONQUEST" Value="50"
GRIEVANCES_FOR_DENOUNCEMENT" Value="25"
GRIEVANCES_HAVE_ENVOYS_CITY_STATE_DOW" Value="50"
GRIEVANCES_POSSESS_CAPITAL_PER_TURN" Value="3"
GRIEVANCES_POSSESS_NON_CAPITAL_PER_TURN" Value="1"
GRIEVANCES_SUZERAIN_CITY_STATE_DOW" Value="100"

Always start with globalparams.xml :goodjob:

since I cannot attest as to grievances between AIs.
You may be able to, I'll check the logs... it may help an awful lot... just glad someone else is doing such good work

EDIT: Here are the diplomacy modifiers and decay... filtered just for me... I am player 0
upload_2019-2-21_12-26-36.png


I would not be surprised if one of these values was grievances. I have filtered this table just for me for 3 turns.. The numbers across the top are the different civs and CS and how I feel about them... but this table (AI_DIPLOMACY.csv) has how every civ feels about every other civ.
upload_2019-2-21_14-24-5.png


EDIT: Actually probably not, its probably all just in diplomacy_modifiers.csv
upload_2019-2-21_14-28-49.png
 
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Cakeathon

Warlord
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
100
Is decay of grievances one way only? The AI denounced me for +25 in my favor, and it never decayed even after the effect of the denouncement ended.

It works both ways. If there is no decay and you are at peace, please take a screenshot.

Spoiler :
Screen Shot 2019-02-21 at 12.34.29 PM.png


Do these help?
GRIEVANCE_MULTIPLIER_FOR_BROKEN_PROMISE" Value="200"
GRIEVANCES_ALL_PLAYERS_CITY_STATE_CONQUEST" Value="50"
GRIEVANCES_FOR_DENOUNCEMENT" Value="25"
GRIEVANCES_HAVE_ENVOYS_CITY_STATE_DOW" Value="50"
GRIEVANCES_POSSESS_CAPITAL_PER_TURN" Value="3"
GRIEVANCES_POSSESS_NON_CAPITAL_PER_TURN" Value="1"
GRIEVANCES_SUZERAIN_CITY_STATE_DOW" Value="100"

Always start with globalparams.xml :goodjob:

Yes, I did see it. Most of the numbers in my guide come from the XMLs.

Haven't figured out what GRIEVANCE_MULTIPLIER_FOR_BROKEN_PROMISE" Value="200" is applied to if someone wants to try to test what happens when you break a bunch of promises. A 200% modifier should be pretty easy to see.
 
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Sources of global grievances:

Global grievances refer to an action that incurs grievances with all other civs assuming they have met you.

Due to the way relationship modifiers are calculated, this can lead to extreme negative relationship with everybody if there are a lot of civs in your game but it will go back to 0 very quickly.

Take a civ's last city: 300% of that city's base value
Capture a city-state: 50
Liberate a city-state: -32

note: if upon the conquest of a civ's last city you pick the liberate option, there will be no penalty for eliminating that civ
Thank you for posting this comprehensive guide. I read it over and saved a CS for the last city then liberated it. I got no grievances for eliminating the civ and was able to carry on playing a by-and-large peaceful game.

Note: As time passed I was able to suzerain various CS's. A civ declared on one of them, I declared a protectorate war, sent 5 armies to the area utilizing the open borders with the 5 alliances I had, and proceeded to pillage every tile in his empire. When I made peace I still had 62 grievances against him.
 

Furycrab

King
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Liberating to get past the huge chunk of global grievance? =/ Hopefully this is something they fix.
 
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Liberating to get past the huge chunk of global grievance? =/ Hopefully this is something they fix.
Part of me agrees with you. The other half wants to play relatively peaceful games sometimes and if I can arrange for the CS to be the last city I conquer I have both an added tactical challenge as well as the option for a different strategy (other than continuing with endless warring because everyone hates me anyway). I will grant you it may be somewhat exploitive.

Edit: Maybe the world only remembers the last battle and the liberation of the conquered CS?
 

Furycrab

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Part of me agrees with you. The other half wants to play relatively peaceful games sometimes and if I can arrange for the CS to be the last city I conquer I have both an added tactical challenge as well as the option for a different strategy (other than continuing with endless warring because everyone hates me anyway). I will grant you it may be somewhat exploitive.

Edit: Maybe the world only remembers the last battle and the liberation of the conquered CS?

Relatively peaceful game where you are able to fully eliminate civs consequence free to how the other AI perceive you? Think of it this way... Say I surprise war someone... Then I get like 1000 grievances, and by property of the system the rest of the world hates me for a % of that until it decays after the war, but because when I eliminate the Civ I do it by liberating the last city, now I lose that 1000 since the Civ isn't in the game anymore, and the game forgets to give me a Global penalty for Eliminating the civ... It's a big problem for the system to work as intended. Ripe for abuse.
 

Infixo

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So, this part is actually worst than in the vanilla. I mean, in vanilla basically there was no warmonger penalty in ancient era. And now you can get yourself into an endelss spiral of denounciing even in ancient era if you are not careful.
 
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