Grig suck

[Ecofarm]

I lost a favorite civ, with .31

Sure there was meteor, the ultimate display of total pwnership. No more great library in industrial -> charismatic.

But I also enjoyed the sublty of shadows. Sure, you had to beeline esus because failing to found was game over; however, it was a nice complex use of grigs.

Now, there is nothing. Twin cast fireballs?! Instead of just having 2 cheap mages (4-5 are sufficient anyway)? Assassins instead of shadows?

Name one thing to use an adventurer for that doesn't suck.

There is no point in using them for units that are a dime a dozen, just use two of those instead.

 

[Yaotzin]

4 twincasting Aurealis summoning archmages with spammed sun nodes? Dunno haven't tried Grig.

I agree Grig should get shadows or some sort of equivalent, they're fun. Esus in general is pretty messed up though, too hard to spread, the secrecy schtick totally doesn't work etc.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I would think that .31(d) made them stronger, since adept adventurers can get free spell sphere promotions now when they upgrade.

Twincast still works on top tier summons too you know. I'd imagine that Twincasted Air Elementals would be best, since when they win they create Lightning Elementals, which may be weak but have blitz and heal 50% after winning.

You can still get Shadows, you just need for someone to spread Esus in one of your cities first.

 

[Ecofarm]

+3 tier 3 summon?

Maybe if summoner trait (cass isn't).

Just get 2 fireballs to make up for each summon, they are better and cheaper and u can have a religion.

6 fireball mages = 3 grig archmages. Dime a dozen does not make a hero.

Grig effectively has no hero. They cant have one from religion and their civ hero is not useful/effective as a national unit.

No hero. No religion. Gee...

Sorry, but twincast for units you can make anyway does not = corlindale, yvain, etc. Not even 3 of them. And you get 2 religious heros and 1 civ hero with every other civ (that dont take the place of academies or GAs). Real ones. With unique powerstuff. Not +1 fodder. Sure, when that +1 fodder was 3 9s that did collateral, but not now.

+1 fodder ftl. Next?

 

[Slvynn]

may be some unique Grigori adventurers promos set should be implemented. Once born they randomly get one of those promos, what make them special.

 

[Yaotzin]

You were saying they got nerfed due to meteor removal, it's not fair to then complain that an alternative offered is tier 3

I'm not really seeing how 2 str 4 summons (nor why we're comparing 2 mages to one adventurer, why not an adventurer and a mage, or an adventurer and a monkey?) equals str 8 minimum, probably 12+. If it's the collateral you care about, just pound them with the OP Maelstrom first

Forgot the twincast effect too, duh! Really not seeing how fireballs are comparable?

 

[Ecofarm]

Spell castable only by adventurer triggers event that gives choice of hero?

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@Yaotzin, I xpost edited with urs:

Sure, when that +1 fodder was 3 9s that did collateral, but not now.

Now it is 1 9, that doesnt do collateral and cannot bombard. That's not nerf. That's poof. Before they summoned 3 extra berzerkers (each) that could bombard and moved 4. Now they summon 1 extra champion that moves 3.

So... +1 champion summon? No thanks. I'll take 3 real heros and a religion everytime... for 1/4 the cost of strength of will (-lightbulbing).

 

[xienwolf]

Well I personally don't mind an extra 2 on my Archmages. Makes them survive a whole lot better. And you can always Twincast Maelstrom with one, followed by a Twincast Air Elemental with the other 2. Not much will have the strength remaining to survive the Lightning Elementals after your Air boys toss their best 2 remaining defenders.

 

[Ecofarm]

And what part of that doesn't work with normal archmages and a handful of cheap fodder?

A whole civ, to summon 3 extra elementals? At the cost of religion and religious heros (and a real civ hero). Seriously?

Build like 4 champs with CR1 instead. And get a religion and a real civ hero.

Give me something cool to do with an adventurer. Like events for a real hero choice.


I already wrote, +1 fodder FTL. Just stop.

I don't need +1 maelstrom (mages are cheap - it only takes TWO tier 2 units to do 50%... you are going to use a hero for it?!) or +1 fireball (again, mages are cheap), or +1 champion (champions are cheap). The creation of fodder is not impressive (excepting it is 9 extra 9s that do collateral and can bombard - 3 extra 10s that don't do anything are hardly a worthwhile endeavor civ choice wise).

I'm gonna go Grig! I get 4 extra 10s!!!11!1 With freaking ONLY strength of will!

 

[leo.]

did you ever summon 8 fire elementals? try it, they pwn

 

[Yaotzin]

Spell castable only by adventurer triggers event that gives choice of hero?

---

@Yaotzin, I xpost edited with urs:



Now it is 1 9, that doesnt do collateral and cannot bombard. That's not nerf. That's poof. You used to summon 3 berzerkers that could bombard and moved 4. Now u summon 1 champion that moves 3.

Well, meteor was horribly OP IMO, so I don't think it's fair to compare to that. Even if it wasn't removed it needed a good whack with the nerf stick.

As for the Aurealis or whatever the heck it's called, I guess it's heavily dependent on map size/settings/how far into the game. It's a 8 with one node, but I can easily see 4+, putting it at 14 and growing as you expand. Sure, 3 9s with collateral/bombard is better, but that was dumb It's not +1 champion either though..

Whether that makes up for the other deficiencies I don't know, as said I haven't played them in .31.

Sorry, but twincast for units you can make anyway does not = corlindale, yvain, etc. Not even 3 of them. And you get 2 religious heros and 1 civ hero with every other civ (that dont take the place of academies or GAs). Real ones. With unique powerstuff. Not +1 fodder. Sure, when that +1 fodder was 3 9s that did collateral, but not now.

Not sure what you mean by this, they've always been units you can make anyway with hero (and thus twincast), and have never had anything else special, no?

And what part of that doesn't work with normal archmages and a handful of cheap fodder?

A whole civ, to summon 3 extra elementals? At the cost of religion and religious heros (and a real civ hero). Seriously?

Build like 4 champs with CR1 instead. And get a religion and a real civ hero.

Give me something cool to do with an adventurer. Like events for a real hero choice.

9 meteors per turn didn't work before? I'm just not seeing how they've changed, other than the OP spell they abused best being removed. Maybe that makes them too weak, but if so their balance was flawed anyway, being based upon one OP spell.

 

[Ecofarm]

I'd rather dominate 20 10's with corlindale, before a single fail.

I had a druid dominate Hemah from a player.

Enjoy your +1 elementals. I can build them a dime a dozen anyway. You need to bombard for them to kill anything decent (I play deity) so you might as well have fireballs and save yourself the time and tech of strength of will.

+1 fodder FTL.

 

[Goodgimp]

Weren't you the same guy who started the whinethread about Grigori archmages being completely unstoppable, due to twincast meteors?

Adventurers are still way nice, they give you a lot of flexibility early on, and you can still use them to good effect as archmages. It's just not retardedly easy to instantly dominate the entire map once you get them, which based on your last thread I thought would be considered a good thing.

Twincast fire elementals aren't anything to sniff at.

 

[nihonjeff]

Another factor to consider is that, with Adventurers, the Grig essentially get guaranteed hero units. Granted, with the current state of the AI, there's no real reason why a player can't beat the computer-controlled civs to the religious heroes. But when the AI is up to speed, or against human opponents, it's entirely possible that other civilizations may snag the religious heroes before the player. With the Grig, that's never a concern.

Personally, I think a bigger concern is the Dragonslayer. What's the point of a UU that's a step down from it's vanilla equivalent?

 

[Ecofarm]

Weren't you the same guy who started the whinethread about Grigori archmages being completely unstoppable, due to twincast meteors?

Your point is that I was right before so I must be right now?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=256478

 

[xienwolf]

Um... instead of your old Meteors you could have just built 20 Catapults by your logic.

You are summoning "only" 3 extra elementals, who are themselves summoning "Only" 3 MORE extra elementals. This means you are getting 6 more disposable units per turn. Could you just bring 6 other units from your cities each turn? Sure... maybe... once or twice... if you planned perfectly... Kinda... well, no not really at all. So nevermind, this ISN"T just an extra fodder. Huh.

You want the Adventurers to be super-cool, way mondo Awesome? Go Kuriotates, then you only get 1 Adventurer, he has some really neato abilities, and even a unique model! You just have to wait a LONG time to get him, and you can't so much upgrade him at all. Oh, oops.

Or maybe if you just want a BEEFY HERO you could go Lanun and listen to Guybrush talk about the Monkey in his Pocket! Yipee!




Grigori are FAR from sucking. They are still quite solid. And no Adventurer should be capable of coming CLOSE to comparing to an actual Hero unit. You are expected to get probably 6 of them in the course of the game without your worldspell, thus at best they should be about 1/6th of the strength of a true Hero. Plus you are granted diversity and options, which always comes at the cost of strength, so that knocks them down to being maybe allowed to be 1/10th the strength of a Hero.


Now tell me... which Hero can stand up to 10 Adventurers upgraded to the same Tech Level as the Hero is awarded at? None? How about just 5 of the Adventurers then? Still none? huh. Guess they aren't underpowered.


Are Adventurers just a slightly stronger base unit? Ayup. Is that what the are MEANT TO BE? Ayup.

So, nothing is wrong here, move along folks.

 

[Goodgimp]

My point was you had a (legitimate, imo!) problem with the Grigori before, being way too powerful due to twincast meteors. Now they don't get them anymore due to the removal of Meteor from the game, but I don't see how Grigori specifically are too underpowered now.

Twincast fire elmentals are still scary, and Grig can still get them far more easily than anyone else. Their adventurers can also fill in as hero types of your choice as the game progresses whenever you need them.

 

[Ecofarm]

Um... instead of your old Meteors you could have just built 20 Catapults by your logic.

You are summoning "only" 3 extra elementals, who are themselves summoning "Only" 3 MORE extra elementals.

No.

My point is that it creates mundane fodder. If I wanted 1 or 10 or 50 more axemen I would build them. I don't want more. I want none. A hero must do better tha just +1 (or +9) fodder. Any tier 2 unit can do that.

The rest of your rant on fodder is irrelevant. I don't want any.

Guybrush captures naval. Situational, but special.

 

[Goodgimp]

Maybe the conversation needs to be turned on it's ear a bit.

Ecofarm, what do you want Adventurers to be able to accomplish or do?

 

[Ecofarm]

So far, I like this:

may be some unique Grigori adventurers promos set should be implemented. Once born they randomly get one of those promos, what make them special.

Or allow anyone who gets guilds have shadows. Just giving them back that so they have something cool to do.

Or have adventurers cast a spell to cause an event that gives you a choice of hero unit.

Other ideas?

+1 fodder is just not cutting it anymore than +3 super fodder did. Instead of totally pwning, grig arches are totally lame. A handfull of fireball mages easily makes up for the extra 3 elementals. In fact, it's better because it bombards.