knupp715
King
Great Job. Things are looking good.
Save?
Save?
Grumpy Old Men AWP Hub
- Thread starter ThERat
- Start date
Here's the Roman stack. Probably 30 deep, including Rifles. Still complete garbage compared to what is defending Bonn. ETA is 4 turns due to our cultural borders having expanded.
Hattie's stack is maybe 3 turns behind this one, then whenever Khan feels like showing up. I doubt we'll go on the offensive in the next 10, but after that the AIs should be collectively unable to mount a serious attack on any of our stacks. If we had enough boats I might consider a large-scale amphibious landing near the choke and then keeping most of Louis' cities to save us the settlers. But I doubt we have enough boats for that.
Hattie's stack is maybe 3 turns behind this one, then whenever Khan feels like showing up. I doubt we'll go on the offensive in the next 10, but after that the AIs should be collectively unable to mount a serious attack on any of our stacks. If we had enough boats I might consider a large-scale amphibious landing near the choke and then keeping most of Louis' cities to save us the settlers. But I doubt we have enough boats for that.
I think we have two Galleys. 
We also cannot get from the choke to French land. There is ice in the way.
Good turns TMcC.
We also cannot get from the choke to French land. There is ice in the way.Good turns TMcC.
ThERat
Deity
great turns T_McC 
Good thing the AI has open borders and wasting all their hammers. I agree with waiting for all the units to burn and then go all out and raze France.
By the way, if we want to delay astronomy, we can go for combustion to get destroyers and transports. This way we could mount an attack at Egypt as well.
Good thing the AI has open borders and wasting all their hammers. I agree with waiting for all the units to burn and then go all out and raze France.
By the way, if we want to delay astronomy, we can go for combustion to get destroyers and transports. This way we could mount an attack at Egypt as well.
One other feature I found useful for the first time was the visibility (+1 sight, will be useful in France to see what's coming) promotion that requires flanking one, I think, on mobile units. Also good on clads once they burn the two navigations.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
Lurker vocabulary check: opening the choke is...? Moving the units out of one of the two forts, encouraging the AI to bring a lot of units to the forts where they can be killed - presumably returning to the fort before they arrive? Or is there something subtler going on?
VoiceOfUnreason said:
You got it. The AI won't attack units in the choke point but will go for towns. By moving some units out of the fort you get a flood of AI. The only thing to be careful about is that if you let the flood get out of control you can find you can't close the floodgates because there are too many units in the way.
ThERat
Deity
by the way, does anyone know how to check the entire stack of units instead of seeing ...
I think that's really a lousy feature just like the mentioned goto-attack bug
I think that's really a lousy feature just like the mentioned goto-attack bug
knupp715
King
ThERat said:
Nobody better answer this question, at least not until I post my turn-set. I just played and this isn't just a lousy feature, but a horrible one. You should be able to tell how many units are in a stack, not just able to see there are a lot and then the rest roll of the screen where you can't see them.
knupp715
King
(0) I definitely agree with T McC that we have too many units at the choke. Therefore, I moved some out, upgraded them, and this is what I came up with....
A pretty nice little attacking force to take care of the southern French cities.
(1) 1792
Khan, Julius, and Gandhi have super stacks (stacks that you have no idea how many units are in them because the units are off the screen) marching towards Bonn.
(2) 1794
We discover democracy which is great. Emancipation should combat unhappiness greatly so I revolt. I decide to start combustion. Destroyers will be great, we have lots of oil to hook up with wells but need combustion to do so, and if we are going to want to mount a serious amphibious attack in the future we will need transports.
I'm scouting with some ironclads and what do I see. Khan has 2 superstacks, Julius has 1 superstack + 2 regular stacks, Hatty has 2 stacks and India has 2 stacks.
(3) 1796
Spot another superstack on its way, this one is Egyptian. Looks like we will not be launching an attack on France for a while.
Kill a longbowman, pike, and two cats and...
We raze Grenoble. I thought about it for a moment, and actually contemplated holding on to the city. It isn't too shabby of a location, even though it would be much better 1 tile northeast to grab the oil. But in the end I decided to raze it. There would be no way we could hold on to it (if you don't believe me just wait). If the team objects we can rebuild.
Attack out of Bonn at the combined Julius + Khan superstack and kill 11 units, but lose a suicide cannon.
IBT: Kill 5 units at Bonn.
(4) 1798
Attack out of Bonn killing 7 units and only losing 1 suicide cannon. I decide not to suicide any more cannons though as it looks like we will easily be able to hold on to the city.
IBT: The superstacks attack Bonn and...you're not going to believe this...We kill 54 units (it took almost an hour to get thru all the battles) including 8 cats. Another 7 cats retreat (a ton of collateral damage to us). Then we lose all our units in the city.
Just when i thought I was making up for the
move I made last turn set this happens. These were gigantic superstacks. I figured about 30-40 units were there but no, we killed 54, 7 cats retreated, 25 units killed our 25 units in the city (not including non-military units), and if you look in the Screen Shot above there is still a super stack left. So that makes about 100 units. Keep in mind this was only Julius's and Khan's superstack. I don't want to know how many units were in India's and Egypt's stack.
I agree with you Rat. Hopefully this "feature" where you don't know how many units are on a tile because it rolls of the screen needs to be fixed ASAP. If I could have seen we would have lost Bonn due to (around) 100 units I would have at least moved our attack force out of the city so it could move on to kill France, but what is done is done. Sorry guys.
(5)
(6) 1804
IBT: Beat 2 units that attacked our southern raiding force
(7) 1806
A great engineer is born in Munich (and he is right outside the city). He could be used to rush the Statue of Liberty.
Kill 9 units only losing a suicide cannon and goodbye Rouen.
(8) 1808
Evacuating the southern city raider force. If a superstack comes along it is done for, plus war weariness is hitting hard.
Then I notice down south, AI caravels are everywhere! The AI must be getting itchy!
Kill 4 of those pests.
(9) 1810
Kill 6 caravels and 2 knights
(10) 1812
Kill some more caravels
A pretty nice little attacking force to take care of the southern French cities.
(1) 1792
Khan, Julius, and Gandhi have super stacks (stacks that you have no idea how many units are in them because the units are off the screen) marching towards Bonn.
(2) 1794
We discover democracy which is great. Emancipation should combat unhappiness greatly so I revolt. I decide to start combustion. Destroyers will be great, we have lots of oil to hook up with wells but need combustion to do so, and if we are going to want to mount a serious amphibious attack in the future we will need transports.
I'm scouting with some ironclads and what do I see. Khan has 2 superstacks, Julius has 1 superstack + 2 regular stacks, Hatty has 2 stacks and India has 2 stacks.
(3) 1796
Spot another superstack on its way, this one is Egyptian. Looks like we will not be launching an attack on France for a while.
Kill a longbowman, pike, and two cats and...
We raze Grenoble. I thought about it for a moment, and actually contemplated holding on to the city. It isn't too shabby of a location, even though it would be much better 1 tile northeast to grab the oil. But in the end I decided to raze it. There would be no way we could hold on to it (if you don't believe me just wait). If the team objects we can rebuild.
Attack out of Bonn at the combined Julius + Khan superstack and kill 11 units, but lose a suicide cannon.
IBT: Kill 5 units at Bonn.
(4) 1798
Attack out of Bonn killing 7 units and only losing 1 suicide cannon. I decide not to suicide any more cannons though as it looks like we will easily be able to hold on to the city.
IBT: The superstacks attack Bonn and...you're not going to believe this...We kill 54 units (it took almost an hour to get thru all the battles) including 8 cats. Another 7 cats retreat (a ton of collateral damage to us). Then we lose all our units in the city.
Just when i thought I was making up for the
move I made last turn set this happens. These were gigantic superstacks. I figured about 30-40 units were there but no, we killed 54, 7 cats retreated, 25 units killed our 25 units in the city (not including non-military units), and if you look in the Screen Shot above there is still a super stack left. So that makes about 100 units. Keep in mind this was only Julius's and Khan's superstack. I don't want to know how many units were in India's and Egypt's stack.I agree with you Rat. Hopefully this "feature" where you don't know how many units are on a tile because it rolls of the screen needs to be fixed ASAP. If I could have seen we would have lost Bonn due to (around) 100 units I would have at least moved our attack force out of the city so it could move on to kill France, but what is done is done. Sorry guys.
(5)
(6) 1804
IBT: Beat 2 units that attacked our southern raiding force
(7) 1806
A great engineer is born in Munich (and he is right outside the city). He could be used to rush the Statue of Liberty.
Kill 9 units only losing a suicide cannon and goodbye Rouen.
(8) 1808
Evacuating the southern city raider force. If a superstack comes along it is done for, plus war weariness is hitting hard.
Then I notice down south, AI caravels are everywhere! The AI must be getting itchy!
Kill 4 of those pests.
(9) 1810
Kill 6 caravels and 2 knights
(10) 1812
Kill some more caravels
knupp715
King
The luxury slider is up to 40% (I promise, we need it this time
) because war weariness is hitting very hard. I've made sure most cities are stagnate but they still need to be watched carefully.Sorry about Bonn guys. I could have suicided more cannons before the attack but we still would have lost the city. I had no way of knowing how many units were really there.
The AI is getting frisky. All the caravels it is sending in tells me they must have enough land units and are now building up their navy. We can NOT lose control of the sea, that is our greatest advantage.
Hopefully no superstacks decide to attack the choke. They will break through if they do so. On my last turnset (not this one) they attacked because a lot of our units were wounded, and all they need to see is a weakness and they will come strolling down again.
I'm not sure if you guys still want to go for a domination victory, but conquest of foriegn lands right now sounds extremely difficult. The AI has built so many units while our choke was closed, maybe this was a mistake. The only possibilities I see are:
1. Finish the game quietly, go for a space race win. Play purely defensive. Not very fun or exiting, but hey, we'd win.
2. Open the chokes, gaurding our 2 choke cities IMMENSELY. While the Ai is attacking we build up attacking forces. When they are finally drained we launch an attack against France then Egypt, securing a domination victory. More exiting, less chance of victory, but hey we sure would learn a ton.
My vote is for 2, any other suggestions?
And the save:
ThERat
Deity
well, I really can feel for the pain you must have gone through during the super stack attack.
I actually tried to figure out last night how to get the real size of that stack, but well, it is not possible (though of the military advisor). Maybe Firaxis thought that due to collateral damage SOD wouldn't exist any longer? (at least that's what we were told IIRC).
In fact it's even more irritating, I always highlight my own stack in order to see what's happening to hp during a SOD attack, but here all the info is covered with overlaying menues etc. It's highly annoying and needs to be fixed with the next patch. (Sirian, you there reading???)
So, what do we do from now? I rather we do not attack to let WW skyrocket. We should try and resettle the city on the original proposed spot so the AI can spread and we can use cannons more efficiently. What do you people think? Of course, it will take a while to get a big enough stack to plant a town and being able to defend. Or do we simply raze all the French cities without a city?
I actually tried to figure out last night how to get the real size of that stack, but well, it is not possible (though of the military advisor). Maybe Firaxis thought that due to collateral damage SOD wouldn't exist any longer? (at least that's what we were told IIRC).
In fact it's even more irritating, I always highlight my own stack in order to see what's happening to hp during a SOD attack, but here all the info is covered with overlaying menues etc. It's highly annoying and needs to be fixed with the next patch. (Sirian, you there reading???)
So, what do we do from now? I rather we do not attack to let WW skyrocket. We should try and resettle the city on the original proposed spot so the AI can spread and we can use cannons more efficiently. What do you people think? Of course, it will take a while to get a big enough stack to plant a town and being able to defend. Or do we simply raze all the French cities without a city?
knupp715
King
I really don't know what to do at this point. Maybe we should just land an army near France and kill France as you suggested Rat. I don't think building a new Bonn will really help though. The AI will easily take the city down. If only the AI units were more spread out, that way our units would have time to heal. Unfortunately though, their superstacks will just end up overwhelming us. I only hope they don't go after the choke...
Edit: Either way, losing the city doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that I was completely, 100% confident that I would be able to hold it. But I couldn't know how many units were there.
Edit: Either way, losing the city doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that I was completely, 100% confident that I would be able to hold it. But I couldn't know how many units were there.
omni_paul
Mr. Shambles
Lurker Says:
Great read guys. Have just caught up with the last 10 or so pages of this one, and your strategy discussion is excellent. KUTGW
Great read guys. Have just caught up with the last 10 or so pages of this one, and your strategy discussion is excellent. KUTGW
lurker comment:
I got to the point in my game where I never played defense if I could help it, as I didn't want to deal with collateral damage. If you're facing one of those big stacks, perhaps better to burn the cannons on attack (and cannons are not auto-suicides like cats anyway) than waste them on defense.
I got to the point in my game where I never played defense if I could help it, as I didn't want to deal with collateral damage. If you're facing one of those big stacks, perhaps better to burn the cannons on attack (and cannons are not auto-suicides like cats anyway) than waste them on defense.
MasterShake
Goofy Boots
El Lurker commentos (man, three in a row)
I just started reading this one at page 15
now on to the question, is this always war or are you going for conquest?
I just started reading this one at page 15
now on to the question, is this always war or are you going for conquest?
Nothing you could do about Bonn. This was the danger of hiding behind Fortresses for this long, the AI kept building troops so we had to deal with superstacks from each of them. If stacks of ~40 attacked on alternate turns we could have held a single city until the all the AI had lost their stacks. Once two showed up on the same turn the city was lost. It's just bad luck that the two stacks appeared simultaneously, we would still have had a decent shot at defending the city if they showed up on consecutive turns.
This is why I wanted to open the choke, to give the AI multiple targets and reduce the odds they would luck into simultaneous attacks. I just got too scared when the Egyptians started to approach the fortresses and hoped that would be enough to spread them out. Apparently not.
So the French and Indians are toasty, we've burned their troops. Sounds like the Romans took a little hit and the Mongols and Egyptians are still untouched. We could try to open one of the fortresses and steer the enemy to Duisberg. If we have enough artillery we can take multiple shots at stacks before they reach Duisberg and thin them out. We can probably get kill ratios of 8- or 10-1, but it is a gamble. Once the remaining 2 1/2 AI have their stacks killed we can go on offense with impunity.
I doubt the AI will attack the fortresses, they haven't done it yet. The next tech gap will be with Tanks (or Artillery), but we still can't expect to hold out against 100 unit attacks. So I'm leaning towards trying to thin out the AI troops and then going on offense.
What can we muster in Duisberg? We can probably ignore aggressively defending the Incan lands until we start to see Galleons. I don't read anything into all those Caravels except bullheaded stupidity.
This is why I wanted to open the choke, to give the AI multiple targets and reduce the odds they would luck into simultaneous attacks. I just got too scared when the Egyptians started to approach the fortresses and hoped that would be enough to spread them out. Apparently not.
So the French and Indians are toasty, we've burned their troops. Sounds like the Romans took a little hit and the Mongols and Egyptians are still untouched. We could try to open one of the fortresses and steer the enemy to Duisberg. If we have enough artillery we can take multiple shots at stacks before they reach Duisberg and thin them out. We can probably get kill ratios of 8- or 10-1, but it is a gamble. Once the remaining 2 1/2 AI have their stacks killed we can go on offense with impunity.
I doubt the AI will attack the fortresses, they haven't done it yet. The next tech gap will be with Tanks (or Artillery), but we still can't expect to hold out against 100 unit attacks. So I'm leaning towards trying to thin out the AI troops and then going on offense.
What can we muster in Duisberg? We can probably ignore aggressively defending the Incan lands until we start to see Galleons. I don't read anything into all those Caravels except bullheaded stupidity.
ThERat
Deity
T_McC, that sounds like a good strategy, we should be able to draft a lot of units from Cologne in a short time frame.
I will open the choke and see what's happening. By now it should be clear that the common enemy (that's us) has bonded the AI so they all share open borders.
By the way knupp mentioned ironclads from Egypt some time ago but none of us have seen any in the subsequent turns. What happened there? Not that I long to see them.
Will play late night or tomorrow morning, so you all got some time to chip in ideas.
And someone could maybe enlighten us whether we are able to properly know how many units are in a stack. I wonder what the programmers thought there
, it's a step back from C3C.
I will open the choke and see what's happening. By now it should be clear that the common enemy (that's us) has bonded the AI so they all share open borders.
By the way knupp mentioned ironclads from Egypt some time ago but none of us have seen any in the subsequent turns. What happened there? Not that I long to see them.
Will play late night or tomorrow morning, so you all got some time to chip in ideas.
And someone could maybe enlighten us whether we are able to properly know how many units are in a stack. I wonder what the programmers thought there
, it's a step back from C3C.
knupp715
King
Bezhukov said:
Yea, I'm gonna have to agree with you here. I originally wanted to save some cannons for the other super stacks on the way, but if I had suicided them all we may had been able to hold on to Bonn another turn or so. I was amazed though, to see that the cannons were down to 1.2 health just from the collateral damage of cats.
MasterShake said:
It's always war.
I was also thinking about this. I think what happened is that I thought I had the cursor on the ironclad but it was on the ocean in Egypts border and I looked in the bottom left hand corner and saw 100% Egyptian. I could have sworn that ironclad had yellow trim though, or maybe I'm just crazy.
T McC's strategy sounds good to me too. Cologne has a lot of pop and I only drafted once so you should be able to get a lot of units out of it.
I think we should go for Infantry and give them all city bonuses and replant the city. I suspect we can get good odds with this (make sure we are getting 2 promotions) and try to kill more of the enemy. The initial rush is a bummer, but if we can survive it, then it becomes easy again.
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