Grunwald 1410 - Poland+Lithuania vs Teutonic Order

[LDeska]

I hope it fits this forum

As each year around the anniversary of 15 July there is a staging of the Battle of Grunwald of year 1410, known also as the Tannenberg Battle 1410. This year that staging took place on Saturday 14th. It is the biggest such event in Poland. This year there was around 1500 people who fought and 70.000 - 100.000 of spectators (depends on sources). It was a great event - people were wearing medieval clothes, lived in medieval tents, used medieval tools, everything was kept in medieval climate Each year they are gathering on the fields of Grunwald and stay there for longer, they build medieval camps with all the interesting manufacturies like smiths etc. It was a great thing to take part in it, even only as a spectator
Most of those knights, spearmen, foot soldiers were from Poland, but there was also many troops from: our brothers in arms Lithuanians, Belarussians, Russians, Ukrainians and from Germany, Czech Republic, England, Italy, Latvia and Estonia. I think that one of the smiths was from Netherlands (if I recognized his accent well).
The battle involved mounted knights, foot knights, spearmen, bowmen, cannons, but also peasants and woman took part in staging of pre-battle moments. As each year before the battle Teutons gave two naked swords to King of Poland - Władysław Jagiełło and finished after the Great Master of Teutonic Order - Ulrich von Jungingen was killed.

Description of battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald - very interesting, with a lot of info
Proffesional photos: http://miasta.gazeta.pl/olsztyn/51,35189,4315204.html?i=1

Teutons head for battle field (one of many troops of course).

Mounted Teutons arrive at battle field.

Polish and Lithuanian cavalry.

Polish king tent and part of Commonwealth forces.

Teutons gave two naked swords.

Battle begins.

Polish cannons open fire at Teutonic Knights.

Left - something on fire ? Right - Polish cavalry charges.

Typical camp in which fans of medieval era live - camps are located around the battle field.

Medieval smith - anyone could order some tool to be done at place.

Weather was wonderful. Clear blue sky with three flags - from left to rigth: Lithuanian emblem - Pogoń (mounted knight), Polish flag - white-red, polish emblem - crowned white eagle.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

That is a clear blue sky?

How long have the recreations of the battle been going?

 

[Pannonius]

Thanks for the pictures LDeska, this looks amazing. I would sure like to visit this event, it seems like great fun for us history freaks.

 

[LDeska]

OK, this part of sky was not so clear but it was very sunny and my skin is brown now it's over 30 degrees now in Poland - hard to survive outdoor.

The forces started to go to the battle field at 13:00, battle began at 14:00 and finished at 15:00. The whole event lasts for few days - for example day before the battle there is a 'Bohurt' - a medieval battle with almost no rules http://miasta.gazeta.pl/olsztyn/1,35189,4315204.html there are two teams: first: Poland and second: Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians. This yeas our Eastern friends won, but year ago we won
Click the link I've provided, there are 3 youtube movies from Bohurt and some photos.
It's a safe fight - when someone fell, he can't stand up and fight. Armament is original but you can't stab, can't attack eyes, genitalia and feet. The last rule is that you can't attack those who lie on the ground (they're dead).

It's even more fun that staging of game itself, because there is no scenario and the outcome of battle is up to you

 

[TheLastOne36]

I wanted to come but i'm in canada right now... Well i did see most of the battle on tape then i watched a movie abotu Grunwald so i'm pretty much happy.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Great victory for the two Lithuanians, Jogaila and Vytautas, and the inevitable result of the German Order's suicidal and out-of-date diplomatic policies towards Lithuania and (now) Lithuanian-controlled Poland. It isn't clear by the way if there were more Poles than Lithuanians (let alone more Poles than Lithuanians and Rus'ians/Ruthenians), and some of the chroniclers (e.g. Lübeck Chronicle) put the Lithuanian forces at twice the number of Polish forces.

 

[LDeska]

As usually calgacus has to look for an issue that would cause the author of thread to argue with him... don't you have more interesting things to do?

To put it right - Jagiełło was Lithuanian but he was a King of Poland and it was Polish soldiers who was the backbone of that army. Lithuanian, Rus' and Tatars troops were lightly armoured and equipped.

Quotes from wiki:

The left flank was guarded by the Polish forces of king Jogaila and composed mostly of heavy cavalry. The right flank of the allied forces was guarded by the army of Grand Duke Vytautas, and composed mostly of light cavalry.

Forces:
Poland 12-20K heavy cavalry
Lithuania (it includes Rus' and Tatars) 7-11K light cavalry
Teutons 11-16K heavy cavalry
Those numbers only count mounted units, there was also many foot soldiers.

If you look on map, then Lithuania in those times was much larger than Poland, but in reality vast parts of those lands were inhabitatet, so if we consider population, wealth or soldiers, then it is obvious that Crown (that was the name of Poland in Commonwealth) was the bigger player in that union. Probably because of this the king was Lithuanian (who married Polish queen) - to counterbalance that.

I don't think it's a good idea to argue who was more important - it ws a Commonwealth and so far it was the best era for both Poland and Lithuania. From this point for few centuries Commonwealth was a major player in Europe, stretching in it's peaks from Baltic Sea to Black Sea, having largest land army in Europe (not all the time of course!). Though it was very multi-national, mutli-religion and multi-language state it was much more tolerant than Western European states - it is a synonym of Golden Age for Poles and I'm sure taht also for Lithuanians.

 

[Pangur Bán]

As usually calgacus has to look for an issue that would cause the author of thread to argue with him... don't you have more interesting things to do?

To put it right - Jagiełło was Lithuanian but he was a King of Poland and it was Polish soldiers who was the backbone of that army. Lithuanian, Rus' and Tatars troops were lightly armoured and equipped.

Quotes from wiki:

Forces:
Poland 12-20K heavy cavalry
Lithuania (it includes Rus' and Tatars) 7-11K light cavalry
Teutons 11-16K heavy cavalry
Those numbers only count mounted units, there was also many foot soldiers.

If you look on map, then Lithuania in those times was much larger than Poland, but in reality vast parts of those lands were inhabitatet, so if we consider population, wealth or soldiers, then it is obvious that Crown (that was the name of Poland in Commonwealth) was the bigger player in that union. Probably because of this the king was Lithuanian (who married Polish queen) - to counterbalance that.

I don't think it's a good idea to argue who was more important - it ws a Commonwealth and so far it was the best era for both Poland and Lithuania. From this point for few centuries Commonwealth was a major player in Europe, stretching in it's peaks from Baltic Sea to Black Sea, having largest land army in Europe (not all the time of course!). Though it was very multi-national, mutli-religion and multi-language state it was much more tolerant than Western European states - it is a synonym of Golden Age for Poles and I'm sure taht also for Lithuanians.

Haha, you know me. Those figures on wikipedia are the invention of a few nationalistic Polish "historians", added to that article by Polish wiki users. Almost everything on wiki about Poland and Polish history is added by nationalistic jingoistic Polish users, who find themselves constantly at war with Russian, Lithuanian, German and neutral users who do not wish Wilno to replace Vilnius in every article naming the city, or do not wish Polish names inserted in brackets after every mention of any place name between the Rhine and the Urals .

Actual figures of the battle cannot be known, so figures given are fictional; but the only source to account both sides says the Lithuanians had more than twice as many in addition to Tatar allies. You work it out.

And, yes, Jogaila did add the position of King of Poland to his powers, but Dlugosz says it all,
"Jagiello loved his country Lithuania, and his family and brothers so much, that without hesitation he brought to the Polish kingdom all kinds of wars and troubles. The crown's riches and all it carried he donated towards the enrichment and protection of Lithuania."
Of course, the war which is the topic of this thread in the case in point. The German Order being the ancient enemy and indeed reason for the existence of Lithuania. "Polish soldiers" being the "backbone" of the army, as far as the evidence is concerned, is nationalistic fantasy as far as the evidence is concerned... though I guess in theory it could be true.

 

[LDeska]

I think that you're anti-Polish right now... I don't want to discuss Wilno issue here - it is a thread about Polish-Lithuanian victory over Teutonic Order (not "German Order" as you name it).

The best example how you are trying to falsify facts is that issue of proportions of Polish-Lithuanian forces. It is clear to anyone who knows a little bit about this region of Europe in XV century, what situation was Poland and Lithuania then (population, wealth, army).

 

[aronnax]

Ah the famous battle at tanneburg, Although outnumbering the enemy, the knights had better weopens but the battle was sweet victory. The Lithuanian light calvary provoked the heavy calvary knights which chased them as the main army advance to the Teuntonic Troops. Then once the Teuntonic knights got far enough the light calvary attacked with another infantry attacking the flank. They destroyed the Knights.... Great battle

Did I miss anything or wrote wrongly?

 

[LDeska]

Yes, great battle - 11 hours of fight

I read (wiki again ) that it was the first battle where artillery was deployed to battle field - is it true?

 

[Steph]

Nice, but I hope next year the Teutonic Order will win for a change

 

[LDeska]

I put before a link to youtube movies where those medieval fans fight (it is day before the staging of battle) - there is no scenario and any side might win. One of movies there shows a victory of Teutons over Poland (in reality almost all people fighting there were Polish, but some of them wear Polish clothes, others wear Teutonic clothes ).
Here is the link: http://miasta.gazeta.pl/olsztyn/1,35189,4315204.html

I read that most of soldiers looked the same - only the knights had emblems and insignia, foot Polish and Teutonic soldiers looked the same. So Jagiełło ordered our troops to wear arm-band made of straw to make identification of friends easier...

 

[Pangur Bán]

I think that you're anti-Polish right now... I don't want to discuss Wilno issue here - it is a thread about Polish-Lithuanian victory over Teutonic Order (not "German Order" as you name it).

The best example how you are trying to falsify facts is that issue of proportions of Polish-Lithuanian forces. It is clear to anyone who knows a little bit about this region of Europe in XV century, what situation was Poland and Lithuania then (population, wealth, army).

No, I'm not anti-Polish. Big fan of Poland actually. Just don't like nationalism destroying understanding of historical truth. Grunwald is just one of those topics that Polish nationalists made a cornerstone of their national mythology during the 19th and and early 20th century without understanding what was actually going on. Wishing to put that in context and uphold neutrality hardly makes me anti-Polish.

 

[Pokurcz]

The important thing about the battle is that it stopped German expansion and influence from spreading eastwards, which it had done relentlessly up until that point as arable land got scarce in western Europe.

Who actually won the battle is difficult to say, not the least for political reasons as it has gained great importance for many nations that later began to compete for the glory of the win.

Most sources I have looked in to have said that the Poles dominated the allied Polish-Lithuanian forces, but that need not bee true, as for example Norman Davies does not venture to describe the ratios of the combined forces in his "Gods Playground", only the total estimate, and does not proclaim deciding importance for any side.

 

[warpus]

Who actually won the battle is difficult to say

Really?

According to wikipedia says The battle saw the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights decisively defeated — and the order never recovered its former power.

Seems pretty clear as to who won the battle of Grunwald

 

[Pokurcz]

Really?

According to wikipedia says The battle saw the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights decisively defeated — and the order never recovered its former power.

Seems pretty clear as to who won the battle of Grunwald

Well of coarse the side that was not the Teutonic knights won, but what part of the victorious side was the more important one is not as clear.

 

[REDY]

I read (wiki again ) that it was the first battle where artillery was deployed to battle field - is it true?

I think its possible. Hussites were known for first regular using, battle of Grunwald was before hussites so its surely at least one of the first battles where artillery was deployed. If first one, I dont know.

 

[warpus]

Well of coarse the side that was not the Teutonic knights won, but what part of the victorious side was the more important one is not as clear.

Well.. considering that the Polish King ended up getting tons of cash for all the prisoners.. I would say Poland.

 

[Pokurcz]

Well.. considering that the Polish King ended up getting tons of cash for all the prisoners.. I would say Poland.

Well you might have a point, but what did he do with all the money?