Guide to 500k+ scores through Huge map domination on Immortal difficulty

This is very interesting. No one mentioned the cheap courthouses with organized though, and there arent any other traits that jump out at me as more important, only UUs and UBs. Financial makes all water tiles +1, windmills +1, and all that jazz aside from cottages. Getting electricity or whatever gives +1 commerce to windmills provided a sizeable (300 gpt?) jump.
 
I "theoretically" broke 2 million!

600K on Cheiftain = 2 million on Diety (I think)

So now I just need the same (or better) population, land, wonders, and tech ratios that I got on the Chieftain--Epic speed game along with a similar finish date.

Land = no brainer, you'd have the % land in either game.

Pop = should be easier to get cities planted on Marathon speed. Epic was really slowing me down. Cash flow might be a problem. I bought a lot of stuff.

tech = this will be the hard one. Trading w/ Diety AI helps the early/mid game tech, but late game will be hard to match the easy teching on Cheiftain.

wonders = easy. I didn't build many wonders. Should be able to work some more in.

finish date = easy to beat my 1520 AD finish. Score will skyrocket if I finish around 1200 or 1300.
 
Here is a rough draft of that article if it helps someone. I dont have time to finish right now with a baby due any day and work, but instead of it sitting on my hard drive for a month or two I will post it here for whoever would like it to read. It is unfinished but I will hopefully get to resume finishing it in a few weeks.

@WastinTime- dont forget city maintenance at Deity and its much harder to keep the AI from building the Hanging Gardens... did you really have 3.5x pop? So a huge map would have 10,500/3000 population?

Background

Inspired by VirusMonster's high score game, I began playing some Huge Immortal and Deity games in order to see how high a score could be attained. The results are interesting; I was able to score 700k my first game! Many people have asked for a writeup, but I thought I could hit a million with the BTS scoring system, so I tried a bit more. The final result was 1,085,000 points. Here is how it was achieved and why the high scores can reach higher. Hopefully someone else will take up the challenge.

BTS Scoring

Im certainly not an expert in BTS scoring, but the gist of it is the added turns in BTS allow for a higher multiplier with the BaseScore. In other words, a domination victory can be achieved in 400 turns on huge marathon, regardless of CIV version; however, BTS grants you a bonus since the max turns are significantly higher. Furthermore, the CIV equivalent of agricultural civs, Corporations, theoretically allows for EVERY city to have 15 extra food at least from Sids Sushi. The AI is a bit better, but just calls for different tactics than previously (ie, they are still bad). Add in events like the health generating event and BTS is the only choice for scoring high.

Civ Choice

I chose Darius. He has 3 things going for him: 1) An early UU that can take cities by itself; 2) The organized and financial traits- organized is very significant as pointed out by A Turkish Guy and VM for managing large empires and financial furthers that ability; even though you wont have many cottages for the majority of the game, the bonus to water tiles, special tiles, and windmills is huge; 3) The UB is pretty good, surprisingly, adding what is essentially +2 food.

Since this game I have tried Inca and Ragnar on deity with similar settings and really, you can use any civ. Inca can hit a wall if you have too many cities (no organized trait), and industrious does not make up for the lack of organized at all, it’s merely a small bonus in a couple of wonder building cities. Their UB is good, and the UU is excellent if you can economically handle having large numbers of them roaming around the map with catapults. Ragnar has swordsmen almost as strong as praets coming out of the gate (aggressive), is financial, and his galleys move 4 tiles with the UB and circumnavigation bonus on archi tiny islands. You can island hop and try to get free hut technology with his starting scout and a galley.

Map Settings

Terra was chosen. It has a nice domination limit, and it also means you have a nice new world to colonize, picking out the best food spots well before the AI can grab them up. It also provides a safety net in case you destroy too many AIs; you HAVE to get to the new world to reach domination so you could theoretically dominate all the AIs in the old world without worrying about domination. Finally, using Terra essentially gives you a free tech, Astronomy; there are so many huts on the new continent on huge size, that ferrying over a scout/explorer with caravels gives a very good chance to pop it out, saving several turns of research. The following are the techs that can be popped from huts, perhaps you can get more than astronomy with a fine tuning of tactics:

=====Ancient=====15=
Fishing
Hunting
Mining
Mysticism
Agriculture
Archery
Priesthood
The Wheel
Masonry
Pottery
Animal Husbandry
Sailing
Bronze Working
Writing
Horseback Riding
=====Classical======10=
Literature
Iron Working
Mathematics
Drama
Monarchy
Calendar
Construction
Compass
Currency
Metal Casting
=====Medieval======1=
Music
=====Renaissance=====1=
Astronomy

Now, there are several other map types to be tried, including Big and Small and Archipelago and similar map types. These might also yield high scoring potential.

Speed- Marathon

Low Sea Level (maybe you might use high seas for less land and more sea population?)

10 AIs- this gives you a 56% domination limit as opposed to 51% with 17 AIs.

Barbs- None

Goody Huts- On. On deity you may consider turning huts off as they help the AI too much, but on Immortal you benefit even if you never pop a single hut. The AI researches comparatively slow, and you do too in the beginning. If a couple of AI pop key techs early, you get a research bonus for them knowing the tech. Usually you can get a couple hundred gold as well, allowing for maximum research in the early going.

Rivals- Mansa, the Germanies, the Indians, Mehmed, Washington, and Elizabeth

Attacking Huge Immortal

Expansion: Rapid expansion is always grand. Your friend in expansion is the cost/benefit ratio. Since settlers on marathon cost 300 hammers, any city you can take with less than 5 Immortals (60 hammers) lost is a net win. Since most unthreatened AI cities have 2 archers defending, and immortals have favorable odds against non-hill, non-cultural defense cities, military is almost always the best build early on. Immortals are even the best unit usually when there are 5 archers in a 40% culture AI capital; theoretically, each of the first 5 should damage the archers enough to allow 5 more to capture the city. With the retreat bonus of Immortals, you should still be able to make a net gain in those situations, not even counting the city improvements like granaries that often come with these types of cities and the terrain improvements already in place.

Furthermore, you do need quite some workers to be successful on this level. The easiest and most cost effective method to acquire at least 3 workers in the early going is to worker steal. BTS AI is better at covering their workers with archers, but still many times they will leave the worker all alone during the first 100 turns to be captured by a warrior. Sometimes they are just irrigating on the outer portion of the BFC, sometimes they are roading to a second city, but if you are patient you will capture one from each civ you try. I like to "Skip Turn" rather than Fortify the warrior so I dont forget about him sitting there and miss worker stealing opportunities. Never steal one in a situation in which you will end up on a tile with no defensive bonuses and that is right next to the capital so that an archer can kill you; the exception to this is if the worker is mining metal there before you get immortals. Then, by all means attack the worker; even if your warrior is killed the AI will often delete the worker anyways even if there is no more threat. If you have some aversion to worker stealing, building your own workers works fine, it just takes longer. For marathon level in the early going, I like to have 3 workers per city, which enables 3 turn forest chops, 7 turn irrigations, and 4 turn mines. Once your empire is a sufficient size in the ADs, you can turn each and every city to build a worker and before long you will have 100+ to help irrigate and make population.

Military: 4 initial warriors to start, at least the first two produced using the highest shield tiles available at the expense of growth. You never know if the warriors getting to an AI quickly will pay off, but the benefits of a new worker earlier are immense.

The second phase is production of Immortals. This phase lasts until 500 BC or so. The concept is simple: make as many as possible and take cities, workers, and harass the AI. If playing as another civ, swords/cats/axes is the concentration.

The third phase is Immortals+. This series of wars may be fought with cats, axes, spears, maces, etc., depending on your tech level at the time and current empire needs. Cats do two things: defense against spears and softening up of cultural defenses so that you can again attain a satisfactory cost benefit ratio. They also can collateral damage, but I generally refrain from using them to attack cities unless I have to or they are promoted to CR3 to achieve high odds. It is better to lose a 60 hammer Immo than a 100 hammer cat in city attacking.

The final phase is Currasiers+. Once longbows appear, you need a bit more punch for your attack, and curassiers provide that; they can be combined with airships to increase their odds of winning or later be turned into cavalry for a final assault. The AI should never reach rifles unless you let them or frankly, you are doing something wrong, wild, or crazy.

Of course, if you desire to build the Hanging Gardens, you have to play a completely different game. Your wars will be conducted entirely with cats and ancient units, and you have to eliminate everyone down until you have only 1-3 AIs left, hopefully in subpar food locations. This is a two edged sword; you can do whatever you want at this point, but your research will be bad (no foreign trade routes) and the AI will not trade anything they have researched (no problem, just steal things like Feudalism if they make it that far). Finally with this method you must make many more settlers than in the game I mention here; you cant take cities from the AI as they wont have many good ones to give!

Exploration: Your initial scout will do a lot of things. With no barbarians, he is not at risk of dying unless you are in a war with an AI. He will pop huts and get a general description of the landmass, but most importantly he will find horses in your nearby vicinity for your first produced settler to acquire.

AI Research: For the purposes of a game like this, you really want the AI to research well. They will provide several nice techs, metal casting, machinery, engineering, calendar, ironworking, etc. Most importantly they will research alphabet early as a priority, which means you dont have to research it and can concentrate on economic technologies, like Currency and Education.

Research: Initially, you want to acquire Mining, Bronzeworking, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, and Writing. If you plan on building the Oracle, naturally you would want to research to Priesthood before Pottery and Writing, and then enjoy a research bonus on Writing without having delayed finishing the Oracle. You can take a variety of techs with the Oracle, but CoL, Currency, and if you are lucky, Civil Service or even Education is possible.

Walkthrough

So, in the year 4000 BC, King Darius decides to settle on a plains hill, with a cow and a gold hill. The greatest start in the world it is not, but it will do for our purposes here. Really this game was to try the Terra map out, and work on the endgame strategy, which it accomplished.

Phase 1 to 1000 BC

As you can see in the replay, I stole workers from France, India, America, and England during this period. Worker stealing is the key to fast growth, and you really need 3 in the early going for your capital to provide 3 turn forest chops, 4 turn mines, 2 turn roads, and 5-7 turn irrigations depending on terrain. I think 2 commerce tiles is all you really need, and if you can get pottery early, several floodplains can make up for the lack of a gems or gold.

The first builds are typically 3-4 warriors to go out worker stealing in all directions. In worker stealing, naturally you want to try to grab workers while they are on the outside of the BFC. If they are covered by archers, just wait until the AI builds a second city (turns 50-75 roughly); at some point they will leave them unprotected and you can move on in. A helpful tip I use is to “skip turn” for each of these waiting warriors each turn so you dont forget about them and can act as soon as possible. Also, you can camp a resource if its on the edge of their territory; they will get around to it eventually. The AI likes to irrigate special tiles, and if doing nothing else road around their territory. An animal husbandry resource like cattle they will wait usually if they have other tiles to work; so if you are camped by a cattle, and it gets up to turn 60 or so, go out looking for the second city and catch the worker roading.

The next project is a settler to found by horses (if playing Persia/Egypt). You want a high shield location with decent food, as this city will produce quite some military. You can pre-road if possible, with the goal to hook up horses asap. Here horses were close to the west, and I could hook them up and then road towards India, who had Stone and Stonehenge built.

Indian war

Pretty quick matter overall, built 7 or so Immos and declared. Received good RNG vs. the archers at Delhi and didnt need reinforcements to take Varanasi. Finished the road over to Delhi from Persepolis, and sent the Immos west to Napoleon.

Napoleonic War

Another quick matter. Moved in and grabbed his cities. Nothing much else to report as it was straightforward. I seem to remember he captured Delhi with a wandering archer but I took it back asap.

Washington and Elizabeth

Managed to make some spears, but eliminated the copper asap on both of them and poked around until I had them where I wanted them with enough forces in place. BTS AI will move units to reinforce a threatened location better, so if you camp one city on the periphery, often they will move archers from the capital which you can kill in the open field and move to take the capital. You shouldnt have any units threatening the capital while you do this however as they will sit there.

In attacking cities with 20% culture and no hills, I usually send 2 immos for every archer, and if there is 40% defense or hills involved, 3 immos per archer.

At the end of the English war, I am on the verge of bankruptcy. Luckily I was able to plod along to Priesthood barely and take currency. Currency is the most important ancient age tech for games like this, as you can trade gold from the AI and enjoy the 2nd trade routes for your existing cities to further solve your gold problems. To achieve a fast tech pace, early on you will only have the libraries and academies, so you really want to run high research at a deficit to distance yourself from the AI. Dont forget to look for gold trades after you build wonders.

During this phase, Delhi built Pyramids and then Hanging Gardens; since I hadnt sent immos to harass the far away civs, I couldnt wait to build the HG. I typically have two wonder building cities during this time, the best production city and a Moai enhanced coastal city to build The Great Lighthouse, Colossus, and anything else lying around like Temple of Artemis. I wouldn’t worry about wonder distribution and GPP pool contamination as you will just use most of the great people for golden ages anyways and you will need a variety of them. The most important wonders are Pyramids and Mausolleum of Maussolos

Events

There are several events in the HOF mod that will be helpful to you. Consult Ori’s Strategy article on Events for full details.

1) Health tests- free +2 health with possiblity of -1 population. If you get this event early before growing to size 2, there is no penalty.

2) Guns not Butter, Marathon Runner, & Sports League- free golden ages if you have the right wonders under your control. If you get these events, Taj, and 5 GP enabled golden ages you can spend 216 turns in GA with the MoM!

3) A few of the others are marginally helpful, like Blessed Sea (free prophet), Horse Whisperer (+1 food for stables), and Warships (+2 commerce for harbors).

Phase 2 to Education

Once Currency is in, and you are playing for building HG/reducing all AI to insignificance, your main purpose is to maximize science through tech selection. Lit (+15 science (2 free scientists+Representation+library), CS (bureau), Metal Casting (Colossus), Calendar (dye/incense plantations and the powerful Mausolleum) and Education (Oxford) are all important to concentrate on.

Espionage

Since you have whittled the pool of AIs down now, you can concentrate your EPs on them to 1) Steal a few filler technologies and even an important one like calendar or aesthetics and 2) keep tabs on their research and what they are building (like the darn HG). There is no reason to detour to Music for the free artist at this stage if the AI isnt in a position to claim it. You can pop music from a hut later if you play on Terra; Big and Small might be a different story as there may not be as many huts if you are using massive continent/small island setting.

Technology

You probably will need a few courthouses in the farther away places, and this is also a good time to build the Forbidden Palace. The FP needs to be built as soon as possible in a farther away location as its benefits are immediately significant. If CS/Education will provide you with the best science outcome, shoot for those. A scientist for Education isnt bad if you have 11 cities w/ libraries ready to build unis AND you have stone available for the capital to bust out Oxford. If you have several coastal towns, now is the time to get a coastal wonder powerhouse going, with Moai (Stone again!), Great Lighthouse, and Colossus to add a bit of a boost to your bottom line. This city might even need the National Epic to produce your GPs in solid numbers.

Philosophy is a nice to have at this point so you can take a golden age and switch to CS/caste/Pacifism.

Phase 3 to Biology

Economic civics like Free Market or Mercantilism can add to your bottom line significantly. 50 cities x an extra 6 beakers or 3 gold+3 beakers can certainly make a sizeable contribution to the economy. Really Mercantilism might be better to beeline than education if you have many cities and Oxford isnt worth as much due to 10-20% science slider.

Technologically, you want to head to Biology first, Communism second. I tried both approaches and it seems getting the growth first is more important in your trip since you cannot spread Sushi in Communism anyhow. This may be different from the other jargon in this article (I have to vet and clean it all up). This is where you want to pop Astro, and free up Sci Method for research, and on to Liberalism->Biology.

Wall Street should be a priority in one of your holy cities; it will house your Sushi Corporate HQ as well, and cut down on the vicious corporate maintenance costs. Gold producing buildings should be your priority at this time rather than unis or observatories (probably the last things you would want to build at this time).

Finally, this is the time when you should be producing settlers and workers. I like to switch all cities to workers for 2 rounds, and get up to at least 150. Hagia Sophia hasnt been as much a of priority previously, but perhaps it should be built sooner rather than later.

Phase 4: The Endgame Milk

There are a number of interesting things that I have discovered RE: the last phase of the game.

Civics

For the most of the builder turns, you should be in Universal Sufferage, Nationhood, Serfdom, Pacifism, and Free Market. US is obvious, it allows you to buy rather than whip away precious pop, and FM provides -25% corporation costs. The others are seldom used government styles so why are they included?

-Nationhood has no upkeep and 25% espionage, also a barracks provides +2 happies. The upkeep can be quite significant, and eliminating that gives you more $$ than bureau or free speech. The barracks bonus will come in handy for your large cities. The 25% espionage is handy for keeping tabs on what the AI is building, and destroying the Hanging Gardens if they start building it. I also destroy the aqueduct in the HG city, and the AI seems to mill around and build a lot of other stuff until they get back around to making the aqueduct and starting HG again.

Free speech also has the unfortunate culture effect that of doubling Sushi culture, and those perfectly placed food cities by floodplains will get a second and third border expansion earlier, and force you to either plant a city in the desert or just ignore them as wasted tiles. At this point the extra commerce from cottages is frivolous. You can probably use FS with communism/representation in your latter part of the research phase.

-Serfdom- workers work twice as fast and LOW upkeep. The benefits for growth are obvious with faster workers (8 turn irrigations of grassland w/ Hagia Sophia!) and the low upkeep is important for cash.

Pacifism- no upkeep and faster GP for those crucial 5th and 6th golden ages. If you have some extra GP lying around at the end, try bulbing some technology if you wont have enough for a final golden age.

Some other civics that will be useful:

-Representation- during your research phase to Radio, this will be your key civic. In such a large empire, you research at 30% without state property, and the Rep bonus is huge.

-State property- should be your next stop after Biology. Cutting the majority of city maintenance allows you to run 60-70% science and finish up your last bits of research. The bad thing is no spread of sushi while running it :(.

-Free speech- as mentioned above, can provide a cash/research boost for a while pre-Sushi as long as culture doesnt get out of control.

-Environmentalism and Free Religion- both are used at the very end, Environment for the extra health growth and FR for some extra happiness and small research boost to finish out a tech or two. Note the +25% corporate maintenace with environment, if you are not through spreading Sushi you will soon go broke by continuing to expand it.

Actual Milking Pros and Cons

The two most important worker improvements are farms and windmills. We want explosive population growth, and therefore will farm over everything, leaving those research/cash boosting cottage tiles (now towns) for last. The only things you dont want to farm over are: 1 each of your health/happy items, and pigs. Cows? Irrigate them. Sheep and bananas? Doesnt matter if you irrigate or pasture/plantation them; the only consideration is having a few extra of these "neutral food" healths to trade to the AI for gpt, if available. The +2 food for farms in biology is very significant.

On windmills, naturally you want to keep some production cities to build wonders like Rock and Roll and Christo Redentor up until the end. Electricity provides a large (15%?) boost to your economy based on the additional commerce output for these improvements. It is also on the way to Radio.

So what should cities build? I usually build growth, unit, happiness, health. This allows your cities to keep growing; happiness ahead of health is important as an unhealthy citizen still produces food whereas an unhappy one does not. This works out to a build pattern like:

-granary, lighthouse, catapult/archer/immortal (if you never take HBR!), theatre, market, colloseum, grocer (+5 w/Persia), aqueduct, hospital, with harbors thrown in for coastal cities at some point in the middle.

You want to build the most hammer efficient city improvement available for the city’s needs. What I mean by this is, for example, a unit is the cheapest way to maintain happiness, next is a theatre which will provide +2 happy with dye. You may build a market before the theatre if there are significant happiness problems in a high growth city. A colloseum provides +1 happy regardless of lux slider. The apothecary is a great build for unhealthiness, and the aqueduct is cheaper hammer wise than the hosptial in terms of health per hammer. If you still need happiness, you can try spreading religion and building temples for smaller benefits, but if the problem is empire wide you will need to raise the culture slider.

Another note: Once Communism is in, you will go on a buying spree, since every city simply must have a courthouse with Sushi. Otherwise the maintenance is in excess of 100 gpt! 50 gpt is a lot easier to swallow. It is also probably more efficient to buy market, apothecary (or equivalent), and a bank before you buy the other buildings. Now a city limited to size 15 or so growth probably doesnt need these things, but for most of your cities they are necessary so might as well buy them early, enjoy the benefits longer, and get the best return on your investment.

Wonder Buying

Another thing with Communism is the Kremlin. Once it is complete you can buy wonders for less than 10K gold with a turn or two invested. Since you make 3-5K gold at this stage, its not big deal. I have now taken to buying Redentor, Rock N Roll, etc. and it is very helpful. Your two or three wonder building cities can then build other things like execs and settlers. This also means that you only need to set off enough golden ages at a time when you know you can reach Radio for civics changes.

City Placement
Where should the cities be placed? At this point in the game you are making cities for the high growth spots on the map with the most food. You should also look to see how many land tiles are in a new city’s radius, and attempt to minimize those. 1 tile islands with seafood resources are the best spots. They are negligible in terms of domination limits but provide a lot of high growth potential with Sushi.

Floodplains can be great, but the effect is minimized by having desert and moutains present. One desert in the radius wipes out the bonus from 4 floodplains! If you have 2 deserts and 6 floodplains, an all grassland irrigated city comes out as the better spot to place a city.

I would shoot for 150-200 workers at this point to fully improve everything in the fastest possible time. An easy way to do this is to turn every city to workers, and buy them/produce them naturally before you reach Sushi. You will have +/- 150 cities but many of those are already improved, so 200 should be enough with Hagia Sophia and Serfdom.

Building the Hanging Gardens at the end of the game

If you went the route of destroying the AIs early and keeping them from building the HG, you can get a nice 3-10% score boost at the end of the game by finishing the HG on the last turn. To do this, you should build the HG up until one turn left, and leave it in the queue until the end. On the final turn, settle as many city spots as possible on the map and/or attack as many AI cities as possible and take those. You can make hundreds of extra population by doing this.

Im sure there are several other things that do not come to mind atm. But basically, with the endgame you want to do a couple of things:

1) Grow population. This is accomplished by keeping your people healthy and happy, and having enough workers to completely irrigate/windmill the whole of your territory, which should be the most food rich land on the map. Further, spreading Sushi should provide about 15 extra food per city.

2) Avoid the domination limit. Be very careful with Sushi's extra culture, it will easily get you past the limit unless you pay close attention.

3) If you can achieve max population (3000 citizens) by turn 500, you should make 2 million points on Immortal.
 
Hey, nice writeup Killercane, it was a good read. I also looked up WastinTime's 600k submission on Chieftain. I can tell you for sure that you won't be able to get Education from the Oracle at Deity difficulty :) Your tech speed will be cut by half at the very least, so 2M+ not as easy theoretically as you claim :) I have never managed to get even Civil Service from the Oracle at Immortal difficulty, Currency is probably the best pick.

In the meantime, I have been wasting some super good starts, 4 gold, 4 gem, combination of luxury resources of all sorts :) Most important advice I can give to the readers of this thread would be producing sufficient number of Immortals to capture the cities. Killercane's writeup gives some average numbers for city capturing. 2 Immortals per archers on a non-hill, non-culture city. 3 Immortals per archer for a 40% culture or hill city. Do not try a 40% culture hill capital without catapults. Just capture the rest of the cities and pillage mine and stay in war until you can bring a single catapult the nullify the defenses.

I also don't think you can delay building the Hanging Gardens until the last turn on higher levels. Perhaps it is just me :) On a huge map, the distant AIs will be too hard to reach to pillage all metal and horse resources. On a standard size map, it could be possible. Also, the prebuilded buildings start losing hammers after 30 turns if you leave them too long in the queue.

I am also interested in hearing WastinTime's experience with Charlamange :) Can you post some saves up here WastinTime? 2500BC,2000BC,1500BC,1000BC,500BC??... I want to know how many cities you had at these dates.

edit: still no answer from WastinTime regarding the saves... so just forget it... After some wonderful starts, I am convinced Shaka is the best leader for 1M+ scores... Warrior rush to capture first capital :) 1400BC Bureaucracy on Immortal :)
 
1) Not taking Communism with Liberalism. Research is no problem with State Property. SP is the greatest civic ever for your massive empire...well, other than the fact that you cannot build Sushi or executives for Sushi while running it. I thought you would be able to run the thing but just not derive benefits; alas, you cant spread it at all in SP.

You mean instead of Biology one should pick Communism from Liberalism?
 
@WastinTime- dont forget city maintenance at Deity and its much harder to keep the AI from building the Hanging Gardens... did you really have 3.5x pop? So a huge map would have 10,500/3000 population?

Yea, I realize Diety will be nothing like my Chieftain game. I was just teasing mostly, but I'd like to try to emulate that game as much as possible.

3.5x pop, yes. I believe it was 4200/1200 approximately. I'm convinced that huge maps are not ideal for high scores. You just can't make that many cities that fast. You'd want at least 300 cities.
 
This thread seems to be a gathering of the greatest experts ever known in Civilization IV. The information this thread offers is very indepth. The replies proved to be very useful too.

This thread convinced me the power of Organized. I used to think it is a worthless trait. I was wondering if someone can give me an advance analysis of leaders traits and the notable UU/UB.
 
Well, you mean leaders with organized traits or overall? If overall, the only UUs you need are early (chariot types/sword types) that have the ability to kill archers at a good cost/benefit ratio OR another tactic is let the AI use their bonuses and grow their cities large w/ improvements while you beeline to Cataphracts/Curassiers/Cavalry or their UU equivalents.
 
Sorry I missed the request for cities at certain dates:

2500BC : 5 cities
500BC: 12 cities
70 AD : 20
750 AD : 37
 
what is the update?
Some stuff in the pre-Education and pre-Biology discussion.

I tried some smaller maps but isnt your theoretical MaxScore always going to weight your total score downward in the calculations? That is what it looks like and it seemed to bear that out in the milking phase.
 
I tried some smaller maps but isnt your theoretical MaxScore always going to weight your total score downward in the calculations? That is what it looks like and it seemed to bear that out in the milking phase.

You're right, I didn't see that effect in the formula until I looked closer. A population score of 1000-raw/1000-max (ratio 100%) gets beat by a pop score of 2000-raw / 3000-max (66%).

EDIT: Even with this set-back. I remain convinced that huge maps are not the best for high scores. In the example above, you still need to DOUBLE your raw population just to get roughly the same score. I think it's going to come down to a map that is large enough so you don't hit the land limit so soon, but small enough to get a high pop ratio. Really little maps also have resource problems (like some resources are completely missing from the map.) I'm thinking Standard size will score best. That would be nicely designed (or just lucky) by Firaxis.
 
You're right, I didn't see that effect in the formula until I looked closer. A population score of 1000-raw/1000-max (ratio 100%) gets beat by a pop score of 2000-raw / 3000-max (66%).

EDIT: Even with this set-back. I remain convinced that huge maps are not the best for high scores. In the example above, you still need to DOUBLE your raw population just to get roughly the same score. I think it's going to come down to a map that is large enough so you don't hit the land limit so soon, but small enough to get a high pop ratio. Really little maps also have resource problems (like some resources are completely missing from the map.) I'm thinking Standard size will score best. That would be nicely designed (or just lucky) by Firaxis.
Well archi maps should get you the highest but you have to overcome the speed of conquering limitation of having to build boats. Perhaps I am too set on building HG; HG is a major reason why Immortal can best Deity's scoring bonus though (earlier victory date and pop bonus from HG can add up to over .2 scoring... assuming you settle all available land on the map the final turn and get those pop numbers doubled with HG= 10% pop boost (300 pop/3000 max pop).

So the question is, what size map will allow for the fastest conquering on an archi map and thus the highest score? I didnt find standard better than huge, so that only leaves large to experiment with.

End of game HG is buildable on huge immortal; you can take all AIs out before it becomes a problem. How many AIs can you take out on a Deity map before they get the chance to build HG? Can it be done on standard archipelago? Im thinking yes. So that leaves Deity standard vs. huge Immortal.

In the final calculations, what value would you put on the lower/higher maxscore on a huge vs. large vs. standard map?
 
Your valuation of HG seems inflated. I'm pretty sure it was only 15k -20K bonus on my 600K game. So about 3%.

A 10% increase is population is not a 10% increase in score.

10% is also a lofty goal for pop boom. If your other cities have grown properly to size 20-25. Then HG is only 5% or less pop growth. So 3% score increase sounds about right.

Do you really think that a 300 city game is going to score best? Won't it take too many extra turns to get up that high? I would think a map that can support 200 cities is big enough. Maybe 150 cities could score 2 million if done fast enough.

What was your colony maintenance/turn? something like 10,000? On a island map it is zero.
 
Your valuation of HG seems inflated. I'm pretty sure it was only 15k -20K bonus on my 600K game. So about 3%.

A 10% increase is population is not a 10% increase in score.

10% is also a lofty goal for pop boom. If your other cities have grown properly to size 20-25. Then HG is only 5% or less pop growth. So 3% score increase sounds about right.

Do you really think that a 300 city game is going to score best? Won't it take too many extra turns to get up that high? I would think a map that can support 200 cities is big enough. Maybe 150 cities could score 2 million if done fast enough.

What was your colony maintenance/turn? something like 10,000? On a island map it is zero.
Well I said 10% pop boost 300/3000. That will be less than actual growth. I have it calculated at 5-8% as the value for HG. That plus early win bonus as you will save 200 turns on immortal on a bigger map not having to fight so many enemies is >.2?

But it should be simple to figure out. Attached is the scoring formula again. What is the maxScore for say a huge immo map vs. standard deity vs. huge deity and 2) what amount does pop play in the final statistics. I forgot algebra long ago...

maxScore : The theoretical maximum rawScore for the map. Can also be seen in the above breakdown.

factor : A weighting for the score components. By default these factors are as follows:
pop = 5000
land = 2000
tech = 2000
wonders = 1000

currentTurn : The current turn number. Note that this does not start at 0 for games other than the ancient era!

maxTurn : The turn limit for the game.

Raw Score:
Pop: 1 per pop
Land: 1 per tile
Tech: 1 per Ancient tech, 2 per Classical, 3 per Medieval, ..... 7 per future
Wonders: Don't know, but not worth much anyway
 

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So maxscore is or is not a constant? I got 2.397 million as MS for the million point game but... cant make heads or tails of it.
 
If initial score is 28, how do you get 1.085 million for the following numbers from that game?

Pop- 2755/2842
Land- 2115/3881
tech- 209/334
Wonders 125/310

MaxScore is 7367. Turn is 604/1500. Total score (needed or not?)= 7589.
 
Just plugin those numbers to the matlab formula I posted in the first few pages of this thread... All work is already done. Download matlab student edition (should be free) and copy paste my code into a new file, then call the file name from the command line. The code should run and return your 1M score. I actually did it long time ago to figure out what made you score so high. A combination of finishing earlier than my 500k game and also having higher population was the main reason for your 1M score.

All scores are calculated seperately then added togehter using a weighting. 50% for pop, 20% for land, 20% for tech, and %10 for wonders.

And you've also posted the wrong formula to calculate the pop score. There are 2 formulas, and the pop formula uses the exponential version.

Here is the correct formula for the population score.

popscore=(popfactor*poprawscore)/(popinitialscore*power(floor(popmaxscore/popinitialscore),(turnonwin/maxBTSturns)))

The power of the exponential term is (turn on victory / max turns) and this term goes to the denominator of the formula.

Then, the numerator of the formula has your raw score.

All other values are constants (maxscore, initialscore, weighting) so they dont matter in maximization.

Now, how would you maximize a formula that has a linear rawscore component in the numerator vs. an exponential term? The exponent of the exponential term ranges between between 0 and 1, depending on the value of (turn on victory/max turns). Then, the later you finish the game the greater the exponential term will be, hence the greater the denominator term, and hence the lower the total value of the formula.

On the other hand, if the raw score in the numerator of the formula is too small, even if you get a relatively small denominator value for finishing early, the final value of the formula won't be so high.

So how would you optimize the settings to get the highest population score, which corresponds to half of the final score?

Realize that the numerator of the formula (rawscore factor) grows exponentially in most of our games. Data from my 500k shows population doubled from 100(at 1AD) to 200(at 500AD) and then 400(at 1000AD) every 500 years.

But in my game I did neither have sushi, nor biology for the extra food on farms.

The ideal scenario for high score would get Biology and Sushi as early as possible (ie means very fast tech speed) and make use of them for a long time to maximize score.

Doubling the population every 500 years (50 turns between 1AD-500AD), (100 turns between 500AD-1000AD) compared to the 1500 total turns on BTS games translates that your score is actually getting higher, because to come up even with the score decrease for finishing 10% later of the total number of turns, the population raw score just has to double.

Read this last sentence more carefully if it does not make intuitive sense. The exponent term in the formula (turn on victory/max turns) ranges between 0 and 1. Take a calculator and take exponent of your max popscore(any constant number will do as well). Make the exponent to be 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, etc... all the way up to 1. You will see that the game expect your pop score to double every 10% of the game.

In my 500K game, between the 1AD-1000AD period (150 turns=10% of the 1500 max turns), the population did more than double, in fact it went 4 times higher, so my score went up as well.

Now Sushi and Biology change the dynamics to a great extent.

How fast do you grow with Sushi and Biology? Well let's assume you have 200 cities near end game at 50% land mass. Let's assume you get +15 food from Sushi(for Terra, other maptypes give more). I assume map is grassland rich (ie tropical). Also let's assume you farmed most of your land and get +2 extra food per each farm. So 20 farms = +40 food. Add the Sushi it is roughly 55 extra food per turn.

How much does it take to grow the city with a granary? Let's say an average 4 turns, because you can only get the maximum +40 farm food if you have enough citizens. At lower city sizes, the population growth will be mainly through the Sushi and not the farms. Then the +15 extra food would mean growth roughly every 4 turns.

Then, in 150 turns, which is 10% of the total 1500 turn game lenghth. You could grow a city to 40 citizens. Well, you can't sustain a city at size 40 because of the health&happiness cap. Well you can if you are fine with angry citizens and expect the overcrowded penalty be compensated through the many farms and Sushi. Sizes 25-30 are sustainable without the future techs, but you must build the right buildings.

So as you can see once the Sushi is spread to all your cities, in less than 10% of the total game lenght, in which the scoring formula expects you to double your score, you can skyrocket your population score, ie half of your total score.

Say you had 200 cities. 200x25 city size would effectively give 5000 population score.
For 300 cities and 35 city size would give 10 500 score. To simulate WastinTime's Chieftain population score, you would need 300 cities at size 35 for a Huge Terra map where max popscore is roughly 3-3.5k.

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So once the Sushi is spread to all cities, your empire should reach its maximum possible city sizes (ie 25-35 citizens) in less than 100 turns.

How fast can you spread Sushi? Well you can definitely poprush all executives in your already highly populated cities. They would cost you 2-3 population, not a big deal considering the city will grow back pretty soon with Sushi. You can also buy the executives for 500 gold. Say you have 20 large enough cities near endgame. Say you can also buy 5 executives every turn. So every 30 turns, you get 20+100 executives. If you have a total of 200-300 cities. Almost all of them should have executives running toward them in less than 60 turns.

Let us also not forget that many settlers must be built to achieve a total of 200-300 cities. Say at least 100 settlers must be built for 300 :hammers: each. That is a hard task. I expect at least 50 of your cities will have halted population growth for at least 20 turns to produce 50 settlers. So producing 100 settlers will take 40 turns. If you want to go for more settlers, let's say Sushi and goldbuying would allow you to get your settler goal in 50 turns.

So total milking phase lasts:
1. 100-150 turns spent on growing citizes to size 25-35.
2. 60 turns for producing Sushi executives.
3. 50 turns for producing settlers to achieve 200-300 total cities.

So milking lasts 200 turns. 200/1500, %13 of the total game length. Game would expect you to increase your total score by 2-2.5 in this time period. How much would score increase in this time period? Well your total empire population would reach from half the max population score(assuming before sushi and farms, you already had half the maximum population, data taken from my 500k game) to roughly 2-3 times the maximum population score. Don't forget population only makes up half the total score.

Then, the milking phase will exceed the formula expectation by (2.5/0.5)/2.5=2 times. The final score should roughly double maybe a bit more than double in the milking phase.

You can more than double the final score if your empire population before milking was half the max population score, but near end game before milking, it is likely that your empire population is already near half the max popscore.

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Now, let's answer the big questions you have raised Mr. KillerCane :)

Deity or Immortal? Huge or Large or Standard?

First deity or immortal. Alright. 0.2 score difference is huge, but at what cost?

If you can finish a Deity game as early as an Immortal one, assuming completion of the milking phase as well, then of course Deity is better. Unfortunately, Deity is much more difficult in both expanding, keeping up in tech, conquering, etc.... In fact, if you look at the average earliest finish dates for standard size maps on Immortal and Deity for BTS, you will see no entries for dominaton or conquest.

Still let's assume Inca or Persian UU harass can get you early domination. Even then, once you are at war with all AIs, you might have a hard time finding a tech trade partner to boost up your research. Ok, let's assume you have kept Gandhi as your tech ally.

Research also happens slower for you on Deity difficulty. All these factors could end up delaying your victory date by at least 150 turns compared to an Immortal domination victory. I doubt under optimal odds your victory will be delayed by more than 150 turns compared to Immortal.

Then, say your score gets delayed by 150 turns. Well as I pointed out earlier, game expects you to double your score every 10% of the game length. So instead of 1.8M score for finishing on Immortal, you would get 2.0M/2=1M for finishing on Deity 150 turns later. Deity will give you 2.0/1.8 =1.1 times more score than Immortal.

The bad news is that the scoring formula expects you to increase your population by 1.1 times every %1.5 of the total game length. (25-30 turns on marathon speed for BTS)

Thus, your margin for error on Deity is less than 25-30 turns. If the game takes you more than 25 turns longer to finish on Deity than Immortal, then you are better off playing Immortal.

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Based on the discussion above and given the margin of error being so small between Deity and Immortal scoring system, I am sure Immortal is the best difficulty to try the highest scores. In fact, lower difficulties could score higher for finishing earlier.

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Now map size discussion...

Let's look back at the population score formula. For a huge map, low sea lvls you get roughly 3k max population score.

Let's say standard map size gets 750 max population score.

The milking phase in standard size maps will last shorter. We assumed 200 turns milking phase for a Huge map in earlier discussion, say for a standard map milking lasts 100 turns.

The difference is roughly 100 turns, assuming everything else being equal.

Now, is this 100 turn difference worth the lower max score on standard size maps? 100 turns is %6 game length for BTS marathon. The formula expects the population to increase by 1.6 in this time period. Can this 1.6 expectation be compansated through the higher max score on larger map sizes?

Let's also make the final raw score to be 2 times more than the max score.
max popscore for huge = 3k , for large = 1.5k, for standard = 750.

popscore=(popfactor*poprawscore)/(popinitialscore*power(floor(popmaxscore/popinitialscore),(turnonwin/maxBTSturns)))

huge map = 5000 * 6000 / (1 * ((3000/1) ^(600/1500))) = 1 220 000

standard map = 5000 * 1500 / (1*((750/1)^(500/1500))) = 824 000

let's add large map for completeness.

large map = 5000 * 3000 / (1*((1500/1)^(550/1500))) = 1 026 000

So when would a 750 max population score map come up even in population score with a 3k max population score map?

Setting the scores equal and solving the equations for turn on win (500 and 500+x),

huge map = 5000 * 6000 / (1 * ((3000/1) ^(675/1500))) = 824 000....

So if you finish 175 turns later than the standard size map 500th turn finish date, your population score comes even with the 500th turn standard map score, assuming final empire populations are the same.

On the other hand, if you finish 175 turns later, your tech and wonder scores will probably go down. They compose 30% of the total score. How much will they go down? Well in 150 turns, if you do nothing, your score halves. They will halve as well.

Your land score, 20% of total score, will follow same dynamics as population, because large map sizes will have roughly 4 times more land than standard map sizes. Relatively speaking, if you were to finish on same turn, your land score from a huge map size would be 4 times higher. If you were to finish 150 turns later, your land score from a huge map size should still be 2 times higher than the standard map size.

Overall, since the population component of the total score is so important, larger maps will score higher despite later finish dates by roughly 150 turns.
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Alright conclusion:

Huge map sizes finished at turn 675 or earlier get higher scores than standard sizes finished at turn 500 or later.

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Summary:

1. Immortal beats Deity, because the 2.0/1.8 = 1.1 times increase in final score would only be favorable if the game were finished not later than 30 turns than on Immortal. BTS Deity will really slow things down more than 20-30 turns so Immortal is much better than higher scores. The gap between Emperor and Immortal(1.8/1.6) is another 35 turns, the gap between Monarch and Emperor(1.8/1.4) is roughly 60 turns. The gap between Chieftain and Immortal (1.8/0.6) is 240 turns. These numbers are approximations, based on a 1000 max population score map.

2. Beating a huge map size at turn 675 or earlier will give you a higher score than beating a standard size map at 500th turn or later, asssuming all else being equal.

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If you use this info of this post in crossing 2M+, you must acknowledge my name :)
 
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