[BTS] Hall of Fame Challenge Series XIX - setup discussion

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Noble Zarkon

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As the latest Hall of Fame Challenge Series "Fall of the Inca" draws to a close we are looking for new ideas for the next one. This series had less participants than recent ones but more entries.

Some people felt that specified too many onerous restrictions and that took away the focus from beating the Inca records. What do you think - should go for a second "Fall of the Inca" series but optimising the settings so people have a real chance to beat the targeted records? Would you rather we did something different this time? Are there specific games / options you would like to see? What is your ideal breakdown in terms of Speed / Map Size etc?

Any and all comments welcome!
 
A 2nd Fall of the Inca might be interesting. I'd prefer more 'normal' settings though, instead of pretty niche ones. The best players are incredibly skillful, so will perhaps find ways to beat some "unbeatable" Inca dates, provided the constraints aren't too strict.
 
If you're doing a continuation to Fall of the Inca, then immortal/quick/domination, small or normal map size, would be worthy but doable targets. Pangaea playing Mongols, any leader. Maybe small map size is better, as imm/quick/domination can seem a bit intimidating.
 
Some people felt that specified too many onerous restrictions and that took away the focus from beating the Inca records.
It's a bit of a balance. Sometimes, picking restrictive settings can make for more comparable games, at which point people can more readily learn from the experiences of each other, since the report from one person's game can have more relevant impact on the games of others playing the same Challenge.

Overall, I'd suggest that if you're targeting a tough-to-beat record, then cooking the settings, or at least not restricting them too much, can be helpful. As a very rough set of guidelines, for Quick/Normal/Epic, I'd use existing records with dates very roughly along the lines of the following types of games needing more "cooked" settings, such as allowing Huts plus Random Events, picking a favourable Leader, picking a suitable map type, picking favourable opponents, and possibly picking or at least not restricting some other favourable settings:
1 AD or earlier Religious Victory
1500 AD or earlier Diplomatic Victory/Espionage Cultural Victory
1600 AD or earlier Cultural Victory
1700 AD or earlier Space Colony Victory

Sure, there are some players who might be able to relatively easily crush those above dates, but we're targeting a wide audience of "everyone who wants to play," so while you can argue with those dates and suggest different ones, and while those dates can shift in either direction depending upon the game settings used, the core idea remains.


On the other hand, if a record is reasonably beatable no matter what settings get used, then putting in a bit more challenging settings that will help to fill out some Quattromaster/Elite Quattromaster requirements can be of help. For example, if existing records are easier to beat, then pick an obscure map type or a Leader with a relatively useless Trait that is normally hard to use to beat a record (such as the Protective Trait). Or, even try with some non-Ancient-Era starts. You could even throw in an Espionage Cultural Victory or two, which, while not really targeting existing Incan records, could help with filling out an unclaimed spot in the HOF tables while giving us an excuse to play on a map type that we normally wouldn't use.


What do you think - should go for a second "Fall of the Inca" series
Sure. I'd suggest making at least 7 of the games against Incan records, maybe more of them if you want to, leaving room for Espionage Cultural Victories or other non-Incan records that might be fun to play.


What is your ideal breakdown in terms of Speed / Map Size etc?
Personally, I'm fine with any game Speed, but if you're going to pick a Marathon Speed game, try to lower the Difficulty Level a bit; i.e. if you were thinking of hosting an Emperor Difficulty Level game, maybe make it a Prince Difficulty Level game, to help ensure that anyone who puts in the time isn't likely to have their game ruined by an enterprising AI. Alternatively, for a Marathon Speed game, keep the Difficulty Level relatively high, but cook the settings with a suitable map type and easy opponents, again so that anyone who invests the time isn't likely to have their game ruined by Zara/Sury/Monte showing up with a nasty stack of doom at an unexpected time mid-game.

For Map Size, I'd also limit the Large plus Huge games to 3 games at most, possibly having less of them, since not everyone's computer can handle those game settings very well and since they can often take a lot more time to play.


Any and all comments welcome!
Overall, I think that the last Challenge series was set up quite well.

There was certainly grumbling about the Ragnar OCC Space Colony Victory game (Game 10), but it was also the game that attracted the most interest both in terms of the number of forum messages and the number of entries, so there were certainly positive aspects to it. :) Maybe the OCC setting and the smaller-sized Map Size combination made the games fast enough to draw interest, with probably the only real drawback being that people felt that the existing record was untouchable with the game's settings. So, I'd definitely categorize an OCC setting as a restrictive setting, but one that is still fun to include in a game or two, yet preferably for a relatively-easy-to-beat record.

An OCC Diplomatic Victory with Permanent Alliances enabled could make for a fun game to play against a not-too-challenging-to-beat record, for example, with some thought put into the opponent Leaders that could allow for some relatively-easy bribing situations in order to get the needed 40 years of Mutual Military Struggle for a Permanent Alliance (ignoring the 40 years of Defensive Pact option as being less feasible for a Diplo Victory game).
 
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OCC culture is an interesting bit of challenge as well
 
Fall of the Inca is a nice theme, but other than some very rare games, Inca games will (always/almost always) be much earlier than non-Inca games. The Inca Civ and leader just has too many advantages, especially at Monarch level through Deity level where the Quechua can capture several early cities much earlier than they could be founded.
 
Fall of the Inca is a nice theme, but other than some very rare games, Inca games will (always/almost always) be much earlier than non-Inca games.
And, therein, you have captured the essence of what makes challenging said Incan records so fun: pitting our years of accumulated knowledge and tactics against a player from the past who took advantage of the Incan boost.

In other words, we are trying to populate the records with games that represent a bit more of a "normal" Civ experience, with the implicit pact that we won't be jerks who submit games with similar settings while using the Incas just to troll everyone else. :)

While it is true that there are many situations where a given map, a given Leader, or other settings can make for a relatively easier game, the Incas are generally accepted as a relatively universal Easy Mode way of playing, while posting solid games that do not employ the Incas adds, in my opinion, an extra amount of legitimacy to the HOF tables.
 
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And, therein, you have captured the essence of what makes challenging said Incan records so fun: pitting our years of accumulated knowledge and tactics against a player from the past who took advantage of the Incan boost.
Exactly - finding new ways to challenge ourselves as we play a game that launched nearly 12 years ago is part of the essence of the Challenge Series.

Fall of the Inca is a nice theme, but other than some very rare games, Inca games will (always/almost always) be much earlier than non-Inca games.
I'm hoping it will be the opposite way around - there will no doubt be some insurmountable Inca records but many of them should be beatable now.

I like the shape this graph is taking :)
 
I noticed the latest Civ VI beta gauntlet has opponents specified and allows the player to pick any leader apart from the specified opponents. Has this been done in Civ IV gauntlets/challenges? Could potentially be quite interesting. Remove the top choices for the victory condition by specifying them as opponents, then let the player figure out who is best of the remaining. For example large space game against all FIN leaders?
 
Interesting idea, elite. We have posted gauntlets/challengers at times with "any" as an option for Leader, so it's not like HOF has been opposed to a choose the leader game. But eliminating the usual suspects by making them opponents makes it even better. Heck..set Inca as an opponent in every game. (granted..quite of few of these suspects are actually pushovers as AIs)

Anyway, once you eliminate the best of the bunch (for humans) by making them opponents, then leader really makes a superficial difference - much more the skill of the player that will be the determining factor (well, that is true for any game)
 
IIRC, gauntlets have historically been 95-99% 'any' leader unless something changed in the past year or so.
Challenger series was 99% specific leader.

But elite's idea makes sense: for the challenger series to eliminate the usual suspects as opponents, but allow 'any' (other)
 
Just wanted to chime in to say that I like elite's suggestion a lot. When I was new to HOF, I always enjoyed the gauntlets that let me pick a leader the most. It was so much fun to play the same settings with different leaders to figure out who was best for the settings.

I hope Challenge 19 will have a non-OCC Space game or two on a bigger than Tiny map. :)
 
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