Hammurabi - Immortal Cookbook

[GKey]

Kossin, when you planing win this SGOTM?
It would be awesome if you could find time to participate in saves analysis, strategy discussions etc, despite the turns length.

 

[Fierabras]

In both fierabras's and my games we both killed/vassaled all opponents and got more then 64% land/pop. I know for sure that in my game that was both conquest and domination on same turn. Can upload save if you want it still.

In my game I was close to Domination, but didn't meet the 64% land condition. In your game you had both (1490 AD info screen shows all vassals) and it looks like Domination gets picked first if both victory conditions are met.

 

[GKey]

Interesting, how could you not get 64% of land if you vassaled them all? Razed cities?

 

[CivConVict]

Sounds fine, along with sticking to the Immortal Cookbook format. However, I'd then like to see the 2nd and 3rd rounds run for SHORTER time periods.

Round 1 = 70 turns
Round 2 = 40 turns
Round 3 = 40 turns

A lot can happen in 50 turns in Round 2 and in Rounds after that Round and thus we seem to see a big disconnect in a lot of our games as a result.

Sure, discussing strategy ahead of time has helped address this disconnect issue, but shortening the later turnsets would also help in this regard--still allowing for creativity, variance, and originality, but also keeping the games from diverging TOO much so as to make others not even want to play from a save.


Note that with a 70, 40, 40 format, we'll still end up ending Round 3 at Turn 150, but the games after the first round will be more closely synergized with each other. The lack of said synergy has probably been the biggest (or at least the most vocal) complaint raised about our Cookbook games, so this approach seeks to address that complaint, as well as addressing the complaint about not having enough time pull off a conclusively successful rush in Round 1 with only 50 Turns at Normal Speed.

I agree. The longer the game drags on, the more stuff happens each round, so the length of each round should decrease over time ... maybe even 60-40-30-20. We could also decide to set the length of the following round based on how difficult the current situation looks: The harder it gets the shorter the round.

 

[CivConVict]

You only get half of the percentage of vassals territory, so if you control less than 28% of the land yourself, you can't get a Domination Victory, even if everyone else is your vassal.

I.e. 28% +((100-28)/2)% = 64%

 

[GKey]

Thanks! So if I've made Saladin vassal instead capture his territory, I wasn't get domination.

 

[Fierabras]

Interesting, how could you not get 64% of land if you vassaled them all? Razed cities?

I only razed 1 Russian city and was behind in cultural border expansion (capturing big cities etc.). Comparing you mini-map with mine in our last screenshots shows the difference.

 

[kossin]

Kossin, when you planing win this SGOTM?
It would be awesome if you could find time to participate in saves analysis, strategy discussions etc, despite the turns length.

As you can see, Plastic Ducks are still up to only 125AD. A space launch from a fallout covered start takes a while

I expect it will take to around the end date

 

[drlake]

Interesting. Apparently Domination Victories are worth a lot more than Diplomatic ones, or one turn makes a huge difference. Religious victory in 1505AD, playing from my save.

Spoiler :

Not in any detail, but the basic plan was to build up some trebs and DoW on Peter. All went according to plan, though it was a sloooow war due to the Walls he had around most of his cities. About the time I was working on taking St. Petersburg, Zara declared on me and sent the completely lame SoD in the screenie attached below after Babylon. While it was moving there (I had basically stripped it of troops, oops!) I built walls and a Musketman, and brought in several other troops from around the area. He plopped down on the Grassland south of Babylon, so I proceeded to reduce his forces using Curs, which killed all his Cats in the process. After all the siege was gone, he suicided his stack against Babylon.

At that point, I had enough troops up North to contain Zara, and was working on taking Moscow. I took Moscow after beating the culture down with my trebs, and accepted his capitulation. I moved the main army north to D-K, and finished Steel about the time I arrived there. I conveniently had enough cash to upgrade all the trebs to cats (10 or so), so did so while I revolted into war civics.

As I was pushing into Zara's territory, I realized that I was getting close to having enough votes to win a religious victory from the AP (Judaism had spread to everyone). That being the case, I switched state religion to Judaism and took a couple of cities from him before accepting his capitulation.

After that, it was basically a matter of waiting through an AP election (I won) and then voting myself a religious victory supported by my vassals. I declared on Saladin for fun, and was starting to take him out when victory was achieved.

Attached are the screenies and the save. I was getting sloppy near the end, as it was clear that I would win. First Immortal Victory!!!!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Interesting. Apparently Domination Victories are worth a lot more than Diplomatic ones

The likely difference comes from a Domination Victory capturing more Cities and from having ownership of more Vassals.

Each captured City's population contributes a lot to one's Score.

The population of the Cities owned by your Vassals will count half us much as they would as if you'd owned said Cities, towards your Score.

In an Apostolic Palace Victory, you won't get any Score for the Cities that do not belong to either you or to your Vassal, even if said AI nation voted for you to be the Religious Leader of the World.


Population is the factor that contributes the most to your Score, and while other factors like Tech level and Wonders owned can also be factors, they were probably not major differentiating factors in the games played.


EDIT: The type of Victory that you achieve has no bearing upon Score, as far as I am aware.

 

[drlake]

The likely difference comes from a Domination Victory capturing more Cities and from having ownership of more Vassals.

Each captured City's population contributes a lot to one's Score.

The population of the Cities owned by your Vassals will count half us much as they would as if you'd owned said Cities, towards your Score.

In an Apostolic Palace Victory, you won't get any Score for the Cities that do not belong to either you or to your Vassal, even if said AI nation voted for you to be the Religious Leader of the World.


Population is the factor that contributes the most to your Score, and while other factors like Tech level and Wonders owned can also be factors, they were probably not major differentiating factors in the games played.


EDIT: The type of Victory that you achieve has no bearing upon Score, as far as I am aware.

Gotcha. So, if I had cared about score, I should have played out the 20 turns it would take to vassal both Saladin and Justinian? No biggie, and I'd rather not slog through the turns on a game that's already effectively over.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Gotcha. So, if I had cared about score, I should have played out the 20 turns it would take to vassal both Saladin and Justinian?

Maybe.

Score goes down over time, so you essentially have to gain a large enough boost in Score over the course of those 20 turns to counter the fact that your total Score is reduced by the finishing date. Vassalizing an AI that only has 1 City is probably not worth waiting 20 turns for, but if the Vassals of are a much more reasonable size, then yes, 20 turns is probably a short enough time period in which to increase your Score overall.

If you also cared about which Victory Condition you won by, and wanted to win a Religious Victory, then you'd have to be careful about triggering Domination (exceeding the Land Limit, including half of the Land Area owned by any new Vassals that you take on) or triggering Conquest (by Vassalizing every single AI even if you do stay below the Domination Land Limit). Plus, since a Religious Victory doesn't happen instantaneously, you'd want to capture "enough" land to be near the maximum amount allowed, but do so in a minimal amount of time, and yet not have your Cultural Borders expand your Land Area beyond the Domination Land Limit before the Religious Victory voting results are made available.


So, for a game like this one where we are playing to learn and are playing as a team instead of individually, no, it's not worth the effort to delay your Victory date just to increase your Score.

For a competitive game where you're trying to maximize your Score value, while still choosing your Victory Condition (say, the Game of the Month competition), then certainly, it can be worth the extra effort.

 

[Fierabras]

In my game hinduist Saladin had build the AP and tried for a religious win. Justinian voted for him and my vassals abstained, but he nearly got it.

On this level I win any way I can. I never look at the end score, although I scored a personal best in this game.

 

[kossin]

Just letting everyone with a subscription here that the new cookbook is up!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=394300

Mansa Musa is your leader on a Continents map. Thanks to GKey, you get a low food start.