Hammurabi - Immortal Cookbook

[kossin]

@Grashopa
Shadows are most welcome, of any level. Actually, I strongly encourage shadows from higher (for comparison's sake, helps learning) and lower (to learn from mistakes) level players.

About settling... spoilers included.

Spoiler :

I settled in place without much thinking. Land is so much more important in Pangea (especially Deity) that moving north is a big no-no despite the possibility of seafood. Blocking is much more important and seafood goes very well with 4th-5th cities that can be settled later.

For those who settled NNW: sure you have a seemingly strong capital... but Pangea doesn't give the best land of all maps. You'll get much weaker satellite cities as a result. Wasting/gaining a seafood is a gamble either way, no way to tell. If you were playing this on Deity, you might have lost the game (or made it significantly harder) on turn 0 from wasting a city spot. It also has very little production, and remember grass hills >>> plains hills.

With a lot of trees and good production, you don't really need the whip. Sure, the second settler will come in faster with the whip, but 3rd, 4th, 5th... will all come faster from chopping/hills.

As several people I went for worker steal/rush... but I was greedy. Stole first from Alexander and then from Justinian with the intention of rushing both of them!

 

[GKey]

@kossin

Spoiler :

I was tempted by 2 Justianian workers near my chariot. Decided better 1 short war then 2 long ones. Given our capital that would be 2 short wars though.

 

[Fierabras]

@Grashopa

Spoiler :

Do you think 9 chariots is enough to take Constantinople? Or are you just going to take Tessalonica? Or are you insane?

 

[kossin]

@kossin

Spoiler :

I was tempted by 2 Justianian workers near my chariot. Decided better 1 short war then 2 long ones. Given our capital that would be 2 short wars though.

Spoiler :

Well it's 2 short wars really... make a cease fire when they have a settler in the capital and you have Axes nearby.
Archers move out with settler... wait 3~4 turns then acquire Capital. You'll have veteran axes for the second rush so pretty good odds!

 

[drlake]

You guys are posting too much stuff I can't look at yet!!!!!

 

[Fierabras]

@kossin

Spoiler :

Are you going to post your 50 turns as well? I'm also interested to know if stealing workers is worth it on deity level.

 

[sadmachines]

@Kossin

Spoiler :

About settling... spoilers included.

Spoiler :

I settled in place without much thinking. Land is so much more important in Pangea (especially Deity) that moving north is a big no-no despite the possibility of seafood. Blocking is much more important and seafood goes very well with 4th-5th cities that can be settled later.

For those who settled NNW: sure you have a seemingly strong capital... but Pangea doesn't give the best land of all maps. You'll get much weaker satellite cities as a result. Wasting/gaining a seafood is a gamble either way, no way to tell. If you were playing this on Deity, you might have lost the game (or made it significantly harder) on turn 0 from wasting a city spot. It also has very little production, and remember grass hills >>> plains hills.

With a lot of trees and good production, you don't really need the whip. Sure, the second settler will come in faster with the whip, but 3rd, 4th, 5th... will all come faster from chopping/hills.

As several people I went for worker steal/rush... but I was greedy. Stole first from Alexander and then from Justinian with the intention of rushing both of them!

I don't have much Deity experience, does moving N really lose that much land by not blocking? I will bear this in mind for future games and pay attention to how much difference it makes. I still have much to learn about Immortal before trying to move up in difficulty.
You don't know that you run out of land or that no-one else is above you until you move. If there was a player above via the bit of land next to the coast then moving north could block them. As it stands that clearly is not the case, it is the edge of the map. Oh wait...Pangaea? Yes, it will most likely be the edge. Perhaps moving would be less foolish if the map was Fractal.
It is only recently that I have started moving the settler. I used to always settle in place and then just suffer the consequences for better or worse.
Do you have an opinion on the two turn scout that one player suggested? I'm too timid to try that kind of thing just yet!

 

[kossin]

@kossin

Spoiler :

Are you going to post your 50 turns as well? I'm also interested to know if stealing workers is worth it on deity level.

Spoiler :

Played on Immortal as well but didn't save the game... just tested 100 turns before using it for the cookbook. Maybe I'll replay it but it would be even less fair then.

 

[kossin]

@Kossin

Spoiler :

I don't have much Deity experience, does moving N really lose that much land by not blocking? I will bear this in mind for future games and pay attention to how much difference it makes. I still have much to learn about Immortal before trying to move up in difficulty.
You don't know that you run out of land or that no-one else is above you until you move. If there was a player above via the bit of land next to the coast then moving north could block them. As it stands that clearly is not the case, it is the edge of the map. Oh wait...Pangaea? Yes, it will most likely be the edge. Perhaps moving would be less foolish if the map was Fractal.
It is only recently that I have started moving the settler. I used to always settle in place and then just suffer the consequences for better or worse.
Do you have an opinion on the two turn scout that one player suggested? I'm too timid to try that kind of thing just yet!

Spoiler :

On Fractal my opinion might have been different but on Pangea a coastal capital is usually not worth it when you are already inland.

As I said in Post #2 (in case you haven't read) it is clearly the sea right above so the odds of an AI there are really really tiny! It makes for a backfilling area that you can settle when you've secured some land south/east/west.

Moving the settler like Dhoomstriker suggested can be good, however I don't think it is necessary here. It's more pricy to lose turns on Normal... unless the map generator was really bad you're usually better off to settle on t0 or t1.

Moving for longer than that is usually from pre-made maps where you think the mapmaker might have put a good location somewhere nearby. Useful for xOTM games but not great for the generator

 

[Yoshi1]

Spoiler :

Reason why i don't steal workers or rush with chariots: i play as if it would be Deity, and you are prolly screwed there without at least some axes and a 2nd city. And by DoW for a worker that can be chopped in 1-2 turns ourselves. P.S. Kossin is right, on Deity you might have lost this game day 1 by moving to the coast, could have easily been the other way 'round with the ressources.

So i'll say hf with this guys, and maybe we can have a deity cookbook some day.

 

[kossin]

Problem with Deity is people tend to drop out after the first round... making it very hard to get any discussion going.

 

[CivConVict]

Spoiler :

I settled in place. Like I said, I don't see the point of a seaside capitol, since even if there is food, I don't want to waste any turns on researching Fishing and building a work boat.

Research order: Animal Husbandry -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Pottery -> Writing
Build order: Worker -> ...

After researching AH and finding horses in my capitol I decided to go for a chariot rush and switched to barracks. (I normally wouldn't do that for chariots, but since they're only half price and there's really nothing else to build ...)

Worked the horses first to have the pasture up and running by the time the barracks were finished and started building chariots.

The big question was whom to rush.

Spoiler :

Justinian:
The holy city of Buddhism looked very inviting, but I didn't really see me getting a Great Prophet any time soon. So that would only serve to deny the AI the bonus gold. Also with no way to build missionaries in the immediate future I would risk Hinduism becoming the dominant religion. On the other hand I usually play with different settings (huge - marathon - 18civ) where wars are much more common, so it might be a mistake not to take it now.

Zara Yaqob:
Nice grassland start, but being blocked by Justinian in the west and Alexander in the east is not my idea of rapid expansion. He's the only one not in Slavery yet, but still, definitely a no-go because of the position.

Alexander:
Probably the one with the most units right now, but I can declare war and take his capitol in the same turn if I attack before turn 50. Also he is by far the most likely candidate to declare war on me later in the game, so it would be nice to have him out of the picture.

I decided to go with Alexander.

 

[Nothingontv]

My 50 turns

Spoiler :

I settled in place mainly because settling towards the coast on a pangea map without having fishing as a starting tech just didn’t make sense to me.

I sent my warrior east till I found Alexander and after that south-west and after finding Zara south-east around Zara’s territory. At this point my warrior died to a barb warrior right after I found Saladin.

My first tech was AH and after finding horse in the BFC I decided on a charriotrush.

I settled my second city towards Zara because I intended him to be my target. Saladin was too far away and I wasn’t sure I would be able to take on Alexander. I have no idea where the other AI are at this point.

Unfortunately I already regret how I played. I think settling that second city might have been a mistake because it only has one improved tile so far and I only have one worker. A rush could still work of course if I have a neighbour without copper.

Saladin and Justin are pleased with Zara (both have founded a religion of course).

 

[GKey]

Spoiler :

Reason why i don't steal workers or rush with chariots: i play as if it would be Deity, and you are prolly screwed there without at least some axes and a 2nd city. And by DoW for a worker that can be chopped in 1-2 turns ourselves. P.S. Kossin is right, on Deity you might have lost this game day 1 by moving to the coast, could have easily been the other way 'round with the ressources.

So i'll say hf with this guys, and maybe we can have a deity cookbook some day.

This is my first Pangaea map and I can't argue with experienced people. But I can assure you that worker stealing and chariot rushes work very well on deity. You can find examples here on this forum.
Regarding losing game on first turn by moving settler. I personally settled on turn 2 on deity couple of times and did well after that. That was fractal map though. Wasting 1-2 turns is not a good thing but rarely is a game breaker.

Spoiler :

Going to the coast on pangaea map is certainly a questionable move, but I have my reasoning - food average cap is a pain in my experience. IMO it's worth the risk of 2 turns waste if there is sign for better spot. And we had such a sign. Plus don't forget that I moved warrior 1N first, which revealed empty plain tile, thus increasing chance of strat resource on it.
Once again all that might be wrong on Pangaea, but worked pretty well for me on fractal.

 

[kossin]

@yoshi1

Spoiler :

This is my first Pangaea map so I can't argue with experienced people. But I can assure you that worker stealing and chariot rushes work on deity very well. You can find examples here on this forum.
Regarding losing game on first round by moving settler. I personally settled on round 2 on deity couple of times and did well after that. That was fractal map though. Wasting 1-2 turns is not a good thing but rarely is a game breaker.
Going to the coast on pangaea map is certainly a questionable move, but I have my reasoning - food average cap is a pain in my experience. IMO it's worth the risk of 2 turns waste if there is sign for better spot. And we had such a sign. Plus don't forget that I moved warrior 1N first, which revealed empty plain tile, thus increasing chance of strat resource on it.
Once again all that might be wrong on Pangaea, but worked pretty well for me on fractal.

Spoiler :

It's not the settling on t1 rather than t0 that's the problem on Deity, it's the land availability... the AI will have 3~4 cities by the time you settle your second city. If Zara and Alex decide to expand in your direction, you'll get about 4 cities if you're lucky here

Food is decent in place... there's plenty of riverside grassland that you can farm. Besides, you rarely grow beyond size 5 early on.
Sure I'd prefer 2 wet corns to a wheat and plains cow but can't always get that.

I'm not saying SIP is better than settling the coast here, but generally on Pangea inland>coastal. The coastal locations here have their advantages. HR+Caste System+Philosophy will give you a pretty decent GP farm.

In terms of pure speed (i.e. winning earlier), production usually outshines food unless you have a ton of food and happiness to whip non-stop. That's the best wording I can think of.

 

[Yoshi1]

This is my first Pangaea map and I can't argue with experienced people. But I can assure you that worker stealing and chariot rushes work very well on deity. You can find examples here on this forum.

All i know is that chariots are str.4 units with bad odds vs. garrisoned archers, and that on Deity the AI has more units. So i will def. take a 2nd city near the bronze with an agressive leader over chariots any day of the week...and by stealing a worker you warn the AI, which is usually very counter-productive on deity, assuming we play this map...

 

[GKey]

AI on deity has more units in stacks, but get same 2-3 archers in city garrison. Sure you will need like 12 chariots per city. But it works. You sure know that early rush become more and more important on higher difficulty levels. But window when you can do rush become narrower. Means in some situations chariot rush is your best bet.
But why listen to me? We have some deity players here. Ask them.

Spoiler :

Agreed. I would prefer axe rush here too. And only 9 chariots? Explain yourself Grashopa!

 

[GKey]

@Dhoomstriker

Spoiler :

Some things really never change. Piss off aggressive leader and go for peaceful expansion.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

@Rusten

Spoiler :

Agree. In place has enough food (cow+wheat is already +5) and a ridiculous amount of riverside grassland -- a bureaucracy monster.

I would have to agree with you that the Settler's initial location would be great for Bureaucracy + Cottages.

I, personally, however, prefer a capital with a bit more Food. Given the map type of Pangaea, I am also not convinced that an empire should be focused mostly on slow-growing into several Cottages while the neighbours box us in. For me, a capital with more Food gives us the chance to spam more Settlers and Workers.

What's stopping the wine from trading places with the horses? Moving works out here because of luck, but it seems so risky to me, at least compared to what you can gain.

I also agree with you about the luck.


I still stand by my suggestion of spending an extra turn of exploration if one isn't content to settle in place.

That way, you're no longer gambling but are making an informed decision. Both of the Wine and Horse squares would have been revealed (the Horse being the suspiciously unforested square inside of a massive Forest), the Coast/Ocean squares would have been revealed, and then it would have been left to people's preferences as to where they would settle.

That said, of the people that wanted to move, it didn't look like anyone was biting on this idea, and I did say that I would try and follow popular opinion with my game. So, I, too, went with a gamble.

My gamble was oriented towards obtaining as many hidden squares as possible, while maintaining our existing two Food-based Resources, in the hopes of finding additional Food, and while getting +1 Hammer per turn for each of our Settlers and Workers by settling on the Plains Hills square. I agree with you that this kind of a gamble does not make for great playing in general, but I do believe that it can be a fun way to play if one doesn't mind starting a new game when things don't work out all that well.


From what we see in the screenshot, we even open up other settling possibilities.

For example, I would be tempted to settle on the Wine here, getting us an extra Commerce per turn, getting us a bit more Food from the Flood Plains square, and STILL being able to settle on Turn 1 like nearly everyone else who moved their Settler.

In addition, it gives your Warrior the chance to explore the Coast and the area to the east, to see how best to leverage that Fish Resource with the land available to us.

All of that said, had I played out my game this way and settled on the Wine, it would have been "sufficiently different" from others' games that likely some people would have been complaining, as was mentioned in the last Immortal Cookbook game, that they weren't familiar enough with the choices made to feel comfortable playing forward with the game.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'll have some time later tonight or tomorrow to play this. Still thinking about how to do it, but I may do the 2-turn scout that Dhoom was suggesting. I've never waited to settle like that, so it's worth it for the new experience.

I encourage you to try it out since this game is meant to be a learning experience.

You might not end up with a different settling position than if you had guessed on where to send the Settler. You might even decide that in-place is the best spot for you. But what you will be doing is making an informed decision instead of a luck-based guess.

If nothing else, you will be able to share your decision-making process for chosing where to settle based on the additional info available to you. If you don't end up liking your decision, then people can potentially offer you ways of improving said decision-making process.