Hammurabi - Immortal Cookbook

[kossin]

Let's look at a lake:

2F2C

When your first worker is done, you theoretically will work this tile over a 2FxH (you'd probably work a 3F tile over 2F2C and most definitely 3F1C over 2F2C) tile for max 5 turns (1 turn movement+5 turn improvement is longest for first improvement) so you get 10F10C commerce, 12F from next pop, about 3 turns, meaning you have another 3 turns for the lake before the next improved tile = 6F6C ... each new pop might get to work the lake at most 3/4 turns depending on trees and hills.
You're looking at about 30 commerce, which with discounts can be 1/2 a tech.

However, consider that you need Fishing for this... meaning you don't have one of the useful techs you'd normally get (ex. Agriculture or TW or...).

Oasis is much better as you will work it for the first 20~21 turns and then again another 3~4 turns per new pop... about 1 free tech and doesn't require Fishing.

Still, it's not comparable to gold in the capital or second city... 10 turns of gold will match the Oasis in worker/settler production+commerce.

Don't get me wrong, it's totally doable to grab Oracle without a good commerce start and no Mysticism, it's just riskier and can affect your expansion.

 

[GKey]

^^
Yes, that's what I was looking for. Thanks!

 

[Fierabras]

50 turns, 2000 BC

Spoiler :

I moved the warrior 1N and decided to settle on the plains hill NNW. I then scouted the coast to the east and found Alexander and Darius, who were playing historically when the chose each other as their worst enemy.

I did some micro-managing to finish Fishing at the same time as the warrior by working the floodplain for commerce.

My warrior was killed by a bear before I could scout the west.

After 30 turns I had to make a crucial decision. I hooked up the horses and I had the opportunity to steal a Byzantine worker.

I took it because Thessalonica had only 1 archer.

At this point I decided to mine the plains hill before pasturing the sheep. This way I get a 4 hammers tile which can help me build chariots.

With the loss of 1 chariot I took Tessalonica at 2200 BC.

I also finished Mysticism at this turn and had some hammer overflow from chops, so I decided to take a shot and build Stonehenge exactly at turn 50.

This is my empire: 2 cities, 6 chariots, 2 warriors, 2 workers, 1 Barracks and 1 Stonehenge

Tech path: AH - Fishing - Mining - BW - Mysticism - Writing (6 turns to go).

 

[GKey]

Moved settler NNW.
This is not a spoiler anymore to those who settled, despite chosen location.(It is for those who didn't yet)

I've got a question.

Spoiler :

That was a good bet!

Bunch of food and production, 4 resources, 7 forests, 5 riverside grassland, 1 FP, 2PH!
Hardly can imagine better spot for capital.

Settled on turn 1 and run into same dilemma I always get with fish without fishing. What is best build/tech queue?
Warrior (in 5) - warrior and switch to WB when Fishing is in(in 7)? Or it would be better get worker first while teching fishing-AH?

Reading advanced games threads I've got to conclusion: good micro made them that superior.

Don't get me wrong, right strategic decisions are no doubt critical. Just to me it's easier to make strategic plans, then MM in right way.

Opinions advises are most welcome.

 

[Yoshi1]

Spoiler :

Consider it some kind of complaint, but...why would anyone move the settler to the spot where the sheep/horses is included, without knowing the map? Wouldn't everyone pick the blue circle instead? Am i missing something here?

 

[GKey]

@Yoshi1

Spoiler :

I posted my reasoning yesterday:

...And giving this picture:

...There should be resource in 1 of these locations SWW and NNE. These are not hills so it must be horses/copper/iron. That way I vote to move settler NNW:
+Good observation of sea, PH to settle, possible resource in BFC, at least 5 forested riverside grassland.
- Lose river....

plus at least 5 riverside grassland and at least 7 forests in BFC.
What we know about second hill?
+Riverside, at least 3 riverside grassland and at least 5 forests in BFC.
- Losing potential strat resource. - that was main concern for me, we could get something else in hidden part though.

There was 100% chance for strat resource NNE or WSW from start location. So choosing settle NNW you get 50% chance to get it.
Anyway I was ready to waste another turn or 2 for better location if there was no seafood.

Try avoid spoilers please.

Spoiler :

Horses?!

 

[Grashopa]

My 2000 BC as a deity player (If you want I'll cookbook otherwise I'll shadow and post later)

Spoiler :

I settle in place, giving up bronze/horses to get seafood and a potential 1 hill capital makes no sense to me - I question all of your sanity Especially with the map type. AH-Mining-BW, worker *chariots. I'd rather not kill Zara, especially as he starts in the jungle, so luckily we find Byz close and hes got stone nearby. 9 chariots should be enough from a surprise attack especially as he spams settlers, and I went masonry to get a hammer in the pyramids which really wasn't necessary as we'll have time and chops to get it early. Pottery would have been better to fill in the newly cleared riverside.

 

[Grashopa]

GKey

Spoiler :

Oh my! Worker first and AH without question. You don't even need the fish - fishing and workboat should come after settler in my mind at this point. Size 3 settler with the available specials is fine, workboat just delays the first settlers. If scouting reveals room then sure throw in the fish too before settler/worker pumping.

 

[GKey]

@Grashopa.
Deity players are welcome, just go easy on us

Spoiler :

Thanks!
Hmm, delay 5F2C tile? Will sleep on it.

 

[Grashopa]

GKey to help the pondering

Spoiler :

The food isn't important as the turns you save growing to size 4 before going settler is outweighed by building the workboat and growing the extra pop. And commerce isn't important on this start. Its pangaea - you don't need commerce to get settlers out and ensure you get more room than others.

 

[Fleme]

@Fierabras

Spoiler :

Somehow I failed to realize the potential in chariots and it's looking good your save.

Nice tech pace. I mean, I didn't go fishing and didn't even finish Mysticism by the time of t50 and you have both these techs in the bag. Guess the initial expansion on the copper slows you down just that much. Anyhow, the play for SH could well make this save win because shrining is so nice for the economy.

@Grashopa

Spoiler :

Pyramids do seem attractive having seen the terrain behind Justinian. Just seems way more developed in your game than he does mine but I guess that's partly due to the worker steal I did. Looks like you're in a good spot to rush and I really like the idea behind 'mids although I do have to point out that it's a huge hassle to get that stone connected to Babylon which is really the only site with the potential to have the wonder chopped out.

@Gkey

Spoiler :

I'd like to see a fishing start for comparisons sake to be honest

Would be interesting to see how fast the potential of the fish actualizes and whether or not it will be up to speed with AH starts. AH unarguably nets you way more production but fish in it's own is good for both food and commerce. Many consider hammers superior, as I do.

@Yoshi1

Spoiler :

My reasoning for moving was that a) coast is limited looking at the initial view meaning that whatever resources lie hidden in the fog will be almost certainly (80% chance) accessible via both spots. Furthermore, as stated by those who are better at reading the fog and it's potential, there's a high likelihood of a strategic resource NNE. Pair this with the fact that you get visible riverside grass when going for that hill, it becomes better than the guess of 2NW being superior.

 

[vranasm]

Hmm as it seems I will have to make my mind and settle before I can read anymore...
I don't like the PH away from river...On immortal there is even less bonus health and the trees will be chopped. But as it seems it's some kind of consensus...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, I have played.

Spoiler :

I didn't get any conclusive feedback on anyone saying where NOT to settle, so I went ahead with the PHRiv For settling location, to the NW + NW.

We run into Mr. Insane.

We allow Darius' Scout to remain unmolested while our people figure out how to go fishing in the sea.

Do I dare? Why not? If Alex sends an Archer to raze our capital, at least it will make for a grand story!

Luck is with us today. Then again, the River bonus and Combat I played their roles, too.

We've built our first Worker! Well, it's our second one now, really, if you count the one from Alex... if we can manage to get it back home, anyway.

The Fish are netted and we're spamming cheap troops!

Our Worker has trouble with some runaway sheep. Some of the sheep even think that they can swim! Corral them in a Pasture, I say!

Building our Monumental Towers of Power!

We are Blessed by Buddha!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Summary Image for Turn 50 (2000 BC)

Spoiler :

Note that I did not take the Peace deal, I'm just showing that we can get a Peace deal without having to give up a City or anything like that as part of the bargain.

The focus for me, as usual at this difficulty level, was on peaceful expansion. Well, peaceful in terms of grabbing land, although not in terms of the Worker-stealing mission.

 

[Rusten]

Spoiler :

I settle in place, giving up bronze/horses to get seafood and a potential 1 hill capital makes no sense to me - I question all of your sanity

Spoiler :

Agree. In place has enough food (cow+wheat is already +5) and a ridiculous amount of riverside grassland -- a bureaucracy monster.

What's stopping the wine from trading places with the horses? Moving works out here because of luck, but it seems so risky to me, at least compared to what you can gain.

 

[Yoshi1]

Spoiler :

Nothing, the problem is it works here to some extend, and a slap would have prolly only ment a new start for most = where is the learn factor?
Food seems to be pretty overrated, growth is halted soon enough, we are not philosophical, fishing = a waste of a tech here, and building a work boat instead of starting on the army/workers doesn't get me wet either ^^
Also, looking at that some already smacked Justi around makes this a bit boring, i mean come on with chariots...what a helpless tosser

 

[oppy]

I settled in place because I do not like coastal capitals.

Spoiler :

I have 8 chariots with a barracks. I want to go after Alex since he's so tough to kill after he gets phalanx and he has the pig + marble capital and tbh I just feel like his land is very green and probably really really good compared to the plains filled land of Justin and the jungle filled land of Zara.

 

[drlake]

I'll have some time later tonight or tomorrow to play this. Still thinking about how to do it, but I may do the 2-turn scout that Dhoom was suggesting. I've never waited to settle like that, so it's worth it for the new experience.

 

[sadmachines]

@Yoshi

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Consider it some kind of complaint, but...why would anyone move the settler to the spot where the sheep/horses is included, without knowing the map? Wouldn't everyone pick the blue circle instead? Am i missing something here?

My reasoning was similarish to Gkey. I thought the other spot would have more forest.

There was 100% chance for strat resource NNE or WSW from start location. So choosing settle NNW you get 50% chance to get it.
Anyway I was ready to waste another turn or 2 for better location if there was no seafood.

Didn't realise this bit, maybe it was more of a gamble than I knew!!

I knew I wanted one of the two hill spots to save turns on building a worker. I went for the one that I expected to have more forest. The stuff about the blue circle=seafood is an added bonus that I didn't think of until reading it here.

Does the blue circle mean (in this situation) that you expect seafood in the BFC if you settle on the circle? Or does it mean that the seafood is 1 tile away (ie just in the 3x3 city you have before borders pop to give you the BFC)?
If it is the first then I guess there was a small chance that the seafood might not be available by settling on the non-blue circled tile. You could still move again but that is another turn of moving.

I have a tendancy to go for the coast if I can. Maybe it is a bad habit that comes from too often building GLH and Colossus in the capital on my monarch games.

 

[GKey]

50 turns

Spoiler :

Excellent capital spot made things easy. As been suggested by Grashopa went worker AH first.

Location of Akkad (copper) made early rush on Alex a no brainer. Got worker from him by now. He is ready to sign peace, don't think it would be wise. We already got -1 with Peter for declaring on friend, so just finish Alex asap. He got no metal and Athens - not on hill so 8 axes will be enough. 3 workers can start road to him right now to speed things up.