Handling the apostolic palace?

[WarKitty]

So, current game. Someone else beat me to the apostolic palace and is too strong for me to take on. There are only two non-AP religion (judaism) civs in the game, along with 4 jewish civs counting myself. One is a tiny vassal, the other doesn't share a border with me. Being a warmonger, I declare war on my weakest jewish neighbor.

First turn after I declare war, the "force peace" resolution comes up. Annoying that it came so early, but I defy. It passes and I take the -5 hit. Ouch, but I can take it, though if there's anyway to avoid that I'd like to know!

But a few turns later it comes up AGAIN! Not just that, but I notice some of my cities - the ones that have only judaism as their religion - are taking a -10 happiness penalty. How does that even happen, and is there anything I can do about it?

 

[TalladegaKnight]

Either get enough votes to control it/veto proposals or burn the thing down. I agree it is super annoying.

 

[WarKitty]

Either get enough votes to control it/veto proposals or burn the thing down. I agree it is super annoying.

Unfortunately both of those require going to war to accomplish - which means getting hit with it.

However, what I'm wondering about is how it can keep stacking penalties on me like that. Can I go up to -15 or even -20 for long wars? All the documentation I've seen says it lengthens the duration rather than stacking penalties. And why did I only get the penalty in jewish-only cities?

And here I was hoping for a nice easy little playthrough...

 

[TalladegaKnight]

Here is an AP guide in the strategy articles section. I am not sure on the stacking penalties for defied propositions.

You may also want to post the save too.

 

[WarKitty]

Here is an AP guide in the strategy articles section. I am not sure on the stacking penalties for defied propositions.

You may also want to post the save too.

Yeah that's what I was looking at. According to that guide defiance should prolong the penalty but shouldn't stack it. Not sure if I still have the save or not, I'll look. It definitely put it up to a -10, and only in the cities that had only judaism.

 

[Packers5280]

The penalty does, in fact, stack as you observed. Another way to get rid of it, probably temporarily is to be out of war in the next vote and then vote yes. Voting yes to a resolution that passes eliminates the unhappiness. After it disappears, it starts over at -5.

Also, haven't you spread Judiasm to your cities to gain votes? Also being in the religion doubles your votes than if you were in another or no religion.

 

[WarKitty]

The penalty does, in fact, stack as you observed. Another way to get rid of it, probably temporarily is to be out of war in the next vote and then vote yes. Voting yes to a resolution that passes eliminates the unhappiness. After it disappears, it starts over at -5.

Also, haven't you spread Judiasm to your cities to gain votes? Also being in the religion doubles your votes than if you were in another or no religion.

All my cities are jewish and I'm in judaism. I just didn't have that many because I was hemmed in to where war with one of my 3 jewish neighbors was the only way to expand. And if I dropped out cyrus was going to vassalize to a neighbor and I wouldn't get his nice juicy floodplain cities.

It only stacked in the judaism-only cities, I'd noticed. Though it's possible the others had simply timed out, since the article isn't terribly clear if the 20 turns is adjusted for those of us who play on marathon. If I'd realized it would stack I'd have been more thorough about spreading other religions as well (well, other religion, I only had judaism and hinduism).

Kind of annoying. I like the AP mechanic overall but there's a few things I'd like to change - that being one of them. You could very easily cripple a civilization like that, and I like my penalties painful but manageable. (The other mechanic being how easy it is to diplo-victory, but the AI isn't smart enough to do that on its own.)

 

[Cristoval]

I personally think the AP is working fine as it is. Otherwise it's a pretty useless building. IMO AP just means another thing to plan around. Now you know for next time.

 

[WarKitty]

I personally think the AP is working fine as it is. Otherwise it's a pretty useless building. IMO AP just means another thing to plan around. Now you know for next time.

Eh, my main complaint is that I don't like it being crippling for long wars like that. Difficult, yes, but even with hereditary rule -10 can pretty much kill you, and I can't really seem to figure out the timings on marathon well enough to plan neatly. Plus of course the risk of your victim diplo-vassaling the minute you let up. -15 or -20 would just be impossible, especially since there's an element of luck in whether you get more religions. -5 is more acceptable as a penalty, still something that'll make you think twice. I think it's a good idea but I don't want it to turn into something you absolutely have to have control of as a warmonger. With the AI tech lead I don't exactly have time to grab theology and still stay militarily competitive without a really good starting spot. A little bit of worse luck could have pretty easily been game over there.

And the diplo victory enables some really cheap strategies - I won a game once by spreading my religion to 3 cities of one guy everyone hated and exactly 1 of everyone else. And then promptly reloaded a few turns turns back because that was just silly. Only really works on archipelago maps and the AI isn't near smart enough to manage it.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@warkitty,from reading you posts it sounds like you got hemmed in on Pangaea maybe with all Jewish neigbours,without seeing a save im thinking that your probably at pleased or friendly with these.

So running against the AP your always going to take the diplo hits-managing the unhappiness with monarchy sounds like something you already do,also sounds like you hav,nt got drama for theatres/culture slider or the mids for police state so happiness is a bigger problem.

Ways Ive gotten round this in the past is SPYS with the influence religion mission.You can beg resources/gold for a 10 turn(or whatever it is on marathon)peace treaty and then change to Hinduism (in your case) before DoW.Maybe its possible to even change the AP leaders religion on your map so a vote to stop the war has more chance of failing or not happening at all.Either way if your in a religion different to your opponent you wont get the "we wont fight our brothers of the faith" hit,but with proper diplo/begging you won,t get declared on even though your Hindu.

I sometimes get the same problems with the UN when I defy resolutions-like "adopt environmentalism"-NO NEVER-when you've got min inc/sids suishi in 20 citys...But late game happiness hits like "the world considers you a villain" are more easily managed with culture slider/free religion,hit singles etc.

Without a save that's the only advice I can think of,with unhappiness stacking like that you need to make sure you have traded for as many happy resources as you can and try and make it a quick war.

 

[WarKitty]

Yeah, lakes map and I got hemmed in by Zara, Cyrus, and dear old Saladin with his celtic vassal. Adopted the strategy of sucking up to Saladin hard. I'd just managed to grab machinery/civil service and very carefully deny cyrus iron (as you can see from the save didn't quite work), and I wanted to hit him before he could build up any more. Beelining meant I of course never had time to stop and pick up theology and devote a city to the AP.

Save attached is just past the second AP decision. I did manage to get past this but I can usually manage monarch in any case, especially since the AI is still kind of an idiot despite its advantages. Still not 100% on the new BtS mechanics since I upgraded somewhat recently.

 

[FlyingSwan]

your in a fine position anyway with saladin and zara at war with shaka-they wont DoW on you till that wars concluded.I couldn't see cyrus,s iron you talk of.You can get sugar and gems off zara for free anyway,and gold off shaka for spices and gpt.The gems and gold will give you +4 happy with a forge,also jewish temples for the +1 happy and +2 hammer bonus-which will come in after "the world considers you a villain" demerit has gone.

I can see why you would panic a bit at the +10 unhappy,but with the right buildings and trades its manageable.

I cant comment much on the rest of your game as I don't play marathon-turn 549 just scared the life out of me-conquests normal speed Im looking at turn 250 ish to finish.

 

[nfw]

AP votes come up every 10 turns, so you can do the fighting in between votes.

 

[Tatran]

The maximum unhappiness from defying U.N. resolutions is -25 (6 voting rounds).
After that, the first penalty is being lifted.
I guess it's the same for the AP resolutions, maybe more or less turns when a new voting round comes up.

Btw, OP should improve some game basics. Behind in tech and only founded 2 cities (capital + 1 settler for the second city).

 

[MegaLurker]

You can see how many turns until the next AP vote on the victory conditions screen. You can use that to time your attack to give yourself a few turns, during which you should be able to grab cities.

 

[WarKitty]

The maximum unhappiness from defying U.N. resolutions is -25 (6 voting rounds).
After that, the first penalty is being lifted.
I guess it's the same for the AP resolutions, maybe more or less turns when a new voting round comes up.

Btw, OP should improve some game basics. Behind in tech and only founded 2 cities (capital + 1 settler for the second city).

I'm winning now. And how on earth am I supposed to not be behind on tech with the AI advantages? I got the ones I needed.

 

[Tatran]

It's only Monarch level and Huayna Capac is the strongest leader.
Only at Deity level you can't compete with the AI bonuses.
Zara Yaqob and Saladin will outtech you and the others won't trade techs with you.
(Shaka at pleased, Cyrus and Boudica at cautious)
At higher levels you will need trading partners. So, work on your diplomacy skills.

 

[misterfilmgeek]

You can always turn off Diplo victories.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

The AP does only affect cities where there are followers of that religion, your other cities don't care what the heathens think lol

 

[WarKitty]

You can always turn off Diplo victories.

I like the apostolic palace and having diplo victories available. I just don't like this one specific side effect that it has, especially since it's contrary to what every single guide on the subject I've found says.

The AP does only affect cities where there are followers of that religion, your other cities don't care what the heathens think lol

Unfortunately being AP religion means you either don't get religion benefits or have to deal with the AP. And in games like this not having AP religion means being surrounded by enemies.