Hannibal/Carthage - the best Civ in BtS?

[DrJambo]

Just managed to get my first ever conquest win in Civ, and I did it with Hannibal (Fin/Cha). Settings were:

Random Map (turned out to be pangaea)
Emperor difficulty
Standard map size
Low sea level
9 civs
AggAI
No Tech Brokering
Epic speed

The majority of emperor games usually end in space race or diplomatic, since domination and culture can be quite tricky on emperor. Still, the map type was conducive to a fighting fest and Hannibal's traits are more than adequate for building and/or fighting.

Anyhow, this game turned out to be a breeze, and the only reason conquest was proving tricky to achieve in the end was because I was trying hard not to trigger a domination victory. Compared to other civs, Hannibal just seemed so easy, even at Emperor level... Is he generally accepted to be thee best Civ in BtS? It's hard to see past him imho.

 

[Refar]

I don't think the term "Generally Accepted" will be ever applicable to A Leader/Civ combo. Many different players, playstyles, strategies, opinions... So this thread is kind of futile... but it might be fun nevertheless

Personally - Hannibal sure has nice traits, but he's not my favourite... The UB is nice, the UU hmmm... not sure if it's good - never built a single one of those... Plus his leaderhead is one of the ugliest.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Carthage is one of the best civilizations in the game, in my opinion. He has two top-tier traits that work fairly well together. Larger cities means more cottages worked now, which is more commerce right now and faster cottage growth for later. I also appreciate the early UU and UB, although I feel the Numidian Cavalry plays more of a supporting role than it does as a workhorse. The UB is pretty solid and synergizes with itself (if that makes any sense) by giving an extra trade route and simultaneously making that trade route more powerful. It also gives more of a reason for me to research Compass, which I tend to ignore for a while under other leaders.

 

[PurpleTurtle]

I have long held that Hannibal/Carthage is the best leader/civ combination. There are a couple reasons for this, and if anyone cares enough they can look at my posting history and see I articulated this very notion a long long time ago. There is no doubt that the UU absolutely positively blows. This is easily made up for by the synergy between Hannibal's traits and his UB and an easy wonder strategy. Consider how easy it is to maintain a strong economy when you have the great lighthouse, the temple of artemis built and a cothon in each city. The charismatic trait is just barely enough to keep Hanny from being outclassed militarily. If you promote wisely and use a portion of your financial advantage in building and supporting a larger military you will be ok. You have to consciously decide though to not tech at your max, you have to let the advantage spill over into different areas. I usually wind up at 60% science and 10% espionage. I splurge on ships and have all my armies have dedicated fleets so that they can move/evacuate fast. This is 100% neccessary because on Emperor some ai's built units out the ass. I counted around 30 caravels in two Zulu cities once. Hannibal does sometimes have to use human wave attacks to take down cities, but he can afford it. Imho anyway.

 

[Diamondeye]

Impressive that you run Carthage that well on a Pangaea with low sealevel, I consider it a rather naval-oriented civ.

 

[Arksa]

I've once been successfull in civ4 bts game when difficulty was emperor.

That was with Hannibal and I was dominating. Haven't been able to pull that off with any other civ. Hannibal is a trade route income MACHINE. It was close with Pericles.


IMO:
1. Hannibal
2. Pericles

go figure

 

[DrJambo]

My second favourite has to be Lincoln with his Phi/Cha trait combo, which is arguably quite close to Hannibal's powerful traits. Hannibal favours CE, Lincoln SE, and the Charismatic helps happiness and war.

 

[Supr49er]

Impressive that you run Carthage that well on a Pangaea with low sealevel, I consider it a rather naval-oriented civ.

Carthage was (and is in Civ IV) a good maritime power. Their UU should be a galley that enter the ocean.

 

[DrJambo]

I believe traits are more important to success than a UU or UB, and Hannibal's traits seem to cope fine with a confined and cramped pangaea map. Plus, it's posssible to have coastal cities and cothon-enhanced trade routes even on a pangaea map.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Don't know about Emporer in CIV IV.

I enjoy playing as Hannibal.

He has also given me my toughest competition and most enjoyable games as an A.I.

 

[mystyfly]

Carthage was (and is in Civ IV) a good maritime power. Their UU should be a galley that enter the ocean.

... Like the portugese Caravel... no I don't think so. honestly, being able to settle islands even earlier would be way overpowered.

 

[JKWSN]

The UU is no Praetorian by any stretch of the imagination but it can prove useful (especially if you're on the defensive).

It acts like a mobile axeman. That can damage siege units simultaneously. Throw in barracks and a stables and Hannibal's Charisma are we're talking about a fairly well upgraded unit right out of the gate.

As a builder, I like Hannibal and Carthage. I can expand and not have my economy die on me or get smashed by my neighbors. A good civ overall

 

[Mesousa]

The best thing about the Numidian Cavalry is that it gets a free promotion, that's a bonus that stays with the unit through all future upgrades. This, like the Impi's Mobility, is so much nicer than a bonus that vanishes when you upgrade.

 

[Shirastro]

Just managed to get my first ever conquest win in Civ, and I did it with Hannibal (Fin/Cha). Settings were:

Random Map (turned out to be pangaea)
Emperor difficulty
Standard map size
Low sea level
9 civs
AggAI
No Tech Brokering
Epic speed

Now try playing with Hannibal, and deactivate "no tech brokering" and "aggressive AI" and tell us how that went?

 

[jackdog]

I don't think anyone is going to argue that Hannibal is good but I can never talk myself out of DariusII, if you make the most of the UU and traits to expand early and lots, initialy via an immortal rush, and then tech like crazy to be well ahead with military units so your rifles are facing muskets at worst and usually conquistadors (No I can't spell it), maces and war elephants then you don't need that many units as they rarely lose in battle as long as you sacrafice a few trebs etc, I usually go stright from rifles to steel also. All this war can mean some AI catch up (the ones you havn't slaughtered) but as your units are very well promoted by this stage they get promoted to infantry and you can either dig in and space race, or go domination.

Well thats how a war monger can use him anyway but his beauty is he works for builders also, as does hannibal.

 

[mboettcher]

I always loved this civ. But I will say this. The Epic game speed does lend itself just a bit to the UU of Carthage as well as to its UB which both come early and I must say that the numidian calvary is way underrated. Very strong in survival and handles melee infantry very well. Spam these and just waltz all over the pangea. Plus the no tech brokering adds to your financial leaders ability to gain tech leads.

I think the best test for a civ is how well does it do on different map types i.e. large vs small, continents vs islands vs pangea, epic speed vs fast etc. And how many different types of victories are realistic with it?

Carthage passes all of these tests very well on even high difficulty. Their UB is strong, provides a strong economic boost throughout. Top this off with the financial boost of hannibal and your rolling in dough which lends itself to cultural, space race and dom/conquest victories. The early UU provides strong coverage against over civs even in tight spaces allowing you to get your economy going for whatever you choose.
Plus charismatic also gives you a boost early by allowing you to grow your cities an extra 1-2 pop early to give a strong production boost.

Not many other civs pass all of these tests (in other words how strong are the leaders, UU, UB, and starting techs for all map/game types?). In my opinion the ones that pass are the Americans (with Lincoln or Roosevelt), the English (lizzy or possibly victoria depending on game), Germany (Freddy and Bismark if you leverage him right), Koreans, Mali, Incans and Vikings.

Obviously the Mali and Incans strike first but have all the tools and leaders to survive and hit hard later economically. Same for Koreans and Vikings but they strike a little later. (Vikings also get to save some amphibous CR III infantry for later).
The first three are all late bloomers but have the techs and the leaders to get off to a strong economic start and ward off enemies. England is the earliest bloomer of the three but they come out right in the heart of the SSE's strongest point making them tough and giving them a big bite. America and Germany both strike last but when they do they hit harder than anybody. Germany should hit the industrial era running and just convert all the scientists from the SSE right over to engineers and build panzers and fighters. America has the most powerful CE building (+25% commerce plus happiness bonus') which automatically makes them very strong late but they also have an excellent nonpangea UU to make things more flexible.

 

[mboettcher]

There is no doubt that the UU absolutely positively blows.

Personally I think that the UU is one of the stronger UU's early. I like the fact that its very effective against all melee units so it has less trouble with spears than do other mounted units, eats swords and axes and still has a power rating advantage over archers. Add to this the ability to retreat at a really high rate and a stack of these can do dmg to almost anything. Even cities because the retreat acts like a siege weapon. Not to mention that they are mounted units making them faster than anything.

Plus it comes with a free promotion which means that not only are one or two stronger promotions available sooner (due to hannibal's char trait) but this transmits through all the upgrades giving you stronger mounted units throughout.

Its a top notch UU.

 

[DrJambo]

Now try playing with Hannibal, and deactivate "no tech brokering" and "aggressive AI" and tell us how that went?

I firmly believe that playing with AggAI and No Tech Brokering on makes the game much harder for the human, so I'm unclear as to why deselecting these and trying Hannibal again would make any difference per sé, other than perhaps making my job easier from the beginning...

At Emperor and on a pangaea map, one rarely has the tech lead, even when using a civ like Hannibal/Carthage.

For what it's worth, I never even used Hannibal's UU due to an unfortunate lack of early horses. The Cothon however, was definitely useful. The main thing was that Financial and Charismatic are

 

[Iranon]

He's a very solid leader... solid traits and uniques that, while needing a little work, can be put to excellent use. However, I don't think he comes anywhere near Huayna Capac or Darius.

 

[troytheface]

i remember a while back there was a poll and Hannibal's traits were voted the top 2. whether or not that poll took into consideration the interaction between traits i can't recall.