Hannibal Should Not be a Leader Choice ...

[bitplayer]

In the history of the entire world , and of all the billions of people who have ever lived, there are so very few who can be identified internationally by their first name alone.

One of them is Hannibal.

While he was never a head of state, he was more than just a general. As Carthage's magistrate after the Second Punic War he changed civics and improved revenues enough to meet the burden of reparations to Rome without raising taxes.

He really deserves to be the charismatic/financial leader.

Very true imo

 

[Timhotep]

"Head of State" ≠ "Leader of country"

 

[AdamCrock]

I was just thinking why there is Sitting Bull in BTS ? One tribe leader ? Give me a break ! But again if it wouldn't be him than who ? There was a few options (good as well) but we all seem to forget what makes one a leader ? Is it responsibility in it's own right or is it just the infulence and charisma ? Maybe it is the legend and the cult of personality ? Wrong, wrong and wrong! It is the decision making abillity what makes You a leader ! All the discussed persons got it (Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Hannibal, Gandhi, Alexander, etc) -> Making the decision where others cannot is what makes You a Leader. It does not matter if You are good or just wicked bad ass, it is the decision and only this. For good or ill They have made their decisions, while others couldn't IMHO

 

[damerell]

3. "Historically important" ≠ "good person" by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, Stalin and Mao were two of history's greatest mass-murderers. They were also long-reigning and influential leaders who brought their respective countries back from the brink of collapse and into the position to match or surpass the other great powers of their day. They were evil people, no doubt, but, like their fellow Civ tyrants Genghis Khan, Isabella, Shaka, or Montezuma, they were famous, effective, and influential. I would argue that, if it weren't for the bans on Nazi iconography in certain countries, Hitler would and should be in the game, too.

Really? I always felt (besides the obvious difficulties) that Hitler was out because, while Stalin was a mass murderer who led the USSR to victory and to become a great power, Hitler was a mass murderer who, while charismatic, led Germany to complete disaster.

Of course, a lot of leaders follow something like that expansion/loss/defeat pattern, but not usually so complete a defeat. Napoleon, say, has his own catastrophe in Russia; but before then he's essentially unbeaten on land, and even after, he's well-liked enough to be restored to power after his first defeat and given another shot at it.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

Hitler isn't included becasue a) the Hitler stigma, due to the Holocaust, is significantly worse than the Stalin or Mao stigma, and b) with Hitler, or any references to swastikas/Nazis, the game would be illegal to sell in Germany. (That's what I've been told, anyway.)

Besides, we've already got a CHA/AGG leader, and Boudica is prettier than Adolf.

 

[damerell]

Hitler isn't included becasue a) the Hitler stigma, due to the Holocaust, is significantly worse than the Stalin or Mao stigma, and b) with Hitler, or any references to swastikas/Nazis, the game would be illegal to sell in Germany.

These are the "obvious difficulties" I allude to in the post directly above. Sigh.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

These are the "obvious difficulties" I allude to in the post directly above. Sigh.

...TheMulattoMaker does a quick mental CTRL-F for "obvious difficulties"...



Hooray for being unable to see words in parentheses. I shouldn't try to sound smart before I've had my coffee.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I was just thinking why there is Sitting Bull in BTS ? One tribe leader ? Give me a break ! But again if it wouldn't be him than who ? There was a few options (good as well) but we all seem to forget what makes one a leader ?

Even before BTS came out there was a lot of complaint about "Native Americans" in the game. I'd agree that maybe one or two representative tribes with a leader from that tribe. The "native americans" were a very diverse group. I think Civ 3 had the right idea with using the Iriquois (although Hiawatha as leader is not good). Maybe Crazy Horse of the Sioux? A lot didn't care for the Holy Roman Empire as a Civ either.

I suppose Boudica is in there for the male fan base. Vercingetorix would have been a better Celtic leader.

 

[Antilogic]

As pointed out before, Hannibal was as close as it came in Carthage (since it had an oligarchic form of government during this time period, it did not have a single head-of-state). Before the Second Punic War, he had a falling out with the ruling families in Carthage and was basically the dictator of Carthaginian Iberia (which is also part of the reason why Carthage did not supply him well at the start of the conflict, later on Rome built up their navy to the point where it was difficult to do so). Following the war, he leveraged his immense prestige to become one of the chief magistrates (suffetes) of Carthage, implemented a massive series of reforms and paid off the war indemnity much more quickly than Rome expected. Then he went into voluntary exile when Rome demanded his imprisonment.

I'll... hold off on posting on Alexander and Gandhi. I'm also not a fan of the "aggregate Civs" (Native America, the Celts), but I forced myself to let it go since we can't expect better from the developers.

 

[Jerman]

I just got finished watching a documentary I got from the library, "Ancients Behaving Badly" (History Channel, narrated by 'Mutant X's' Tom McCamous) and there is a segment on Hannibal which discusses his exploits as a leader. After watching it I am very upset!!!!!!



WELL, it turns out that his decision making in traversing the frigid Alps ...

... a journey by which is tormenting by merit of natural landscapes, that he was fond of War Elephants. War Elephants that he could not then proceed to go across rivers, climb mountains nor keep alive until he actually got to Italy. By the time the destination was reached, most of the War Elephants were dead --Hannibal not taking into account the rigors of the voyage.

The only reason why Hannibal was not considered much more then a dunce that Historians are now figuring him to be, is because Rome's leaders helped propagate how "great" he was, and in that way Rome would be even "greater" in defeating him after an 11 year stand-off.


Sorry, but we've all been fooled by our Western overlords, and if not for the Romans grandiosely celebrating how great Hannibal was, Sid Meier would have never chose the noob to be leader of the Carthaginians. Traits: Charismatic, Financial, Elephant Murderer.

If I remember the name I'll link you to a thread that has some guy complaining about the americans being in civ 5. A guy had to come in and say something just because you don't like it doesn't counter their right to be in the game.

 

[Gzz]

True , Hannibal tried to pass Alps , but i think he tried a psycological war : the riomans saw before the elephants , but were indian elephants , whic are smaller than african one .

And think about it : if he wasn 't for Quinto Fabio Massimo the Cunctator ( means "the waiter" ) who has waited for his 6 months and the public money-payed weapons , Rome would lose

 

[jarhead_leif]

,.why not Hannibal?? ,he had a major contribution in the world's combat tactics anyway..

,if memory serves me right..
.,Alexander also marched his troops (it's more of a walking empire) all the way to Asia and lost almost half of what he has..

 

[AdamCrock]

,.why not Hannibal?? ,he had a major contribution in the world's combat tactics anyway..

,if memory serves me right..
.,Alexander also marched his troops (it's more of a walking empire) all the way to Asia and lost almost half of what he has..

That'd be Alex "The Magnificent n' Almighty" The Great me thinks bro

 

[jarhead_leif]

That'd be Alex "The Magnificent n' Almighty" The Great me thinks bro

,.Alexander would be "Greater" or perhaps "Invincible" if he just didn't marry a barbarian and killed his loyal fellow then been poisoned by the generals.,.
,Julius Caesar of Rome too, who was been stabbed to death by the senators.,.

,both of them didnt die honorable, but instead they were backstabbed by their own fellowmen due to their selfish decisions..

,how unfortunate.,

 

[AdamCrock]

,.Alexander would be "Greater" or perhaps "Invincible" if he just didn't marry a barbarian and killed his loyal fellow then been poisoned by the generals.,.
,Julius Caesar of Rome too, who was been stabbed to death by the senators.,.

,both of them didnt die honorable, but instead they were backstabbed by their own fellowmen due to their selfish decisions..

,how unfortunate.,

Indeed both of the said gentlemans died in an "unfortunate accident" if You can call getting stabbed by a whole bloody senate an "unfortunate accident" Anyway the were a great warlords of their time. We have to remember that their place in history has been secured thanks to the indisputable talent for war. Now only if peace loving people got such a high praise from the masses ehh.... seems that warfare has been and forever will be embedded into the souls of man ... how unfortunate

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Indeed both of the said gentlemans died in an "unfortunate accident" if You can call getting stabbed by a whole bloody senate an "unfortunate accident"

Which gets us back to:

"Head of State" ≠ "Leader of country"

It was often, and possibly still is, safer to be a general or an adviser and maintain power from the "sideline" while watching the political leaders be killed one after the other, or at the very least be replaced in some sort of election or appointment process. One can build a very long career that way. If a general out in the field attacks the enemy without the president back home declaring war, do you think he cares that he's not been elected or appointed as Head of State?

And those elephants had been bugging Hannibal to take them on a trip for a long time anyway. Just ask the beasts at your local zoo if they wouldn't like to get out and stretch their legs.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

And those elephants had been bugging Hannibal to take them on a trip for a long time anyway. Just ask the beasts at your local zoo if they wouldn't like to get out and stretch their legs.

"Haaaaaanibaaaaaaal, are we almost to Rooooooooome? I have to go to the baaaaaaaathrooooooom..."

"I WILL TURN THIS ARMY AROUND!!!"

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

"I WILL TURN THIS ARMY AROUND!!!"

I asked if you needed to go before we left!