Harvestable Resources

[Tarquelne]

The only down side to this idea is that it kinda screws the Grigori. They would need a way to do it without GP's.

And the AI in general, maybe.

I think GP discovering resources is a very fun idea... that I don't want to see included because I'd rather civs had to fight or trade for what they don't have. Though resources removed from random generation don't have that drawback, of course.

Perhaps connect the ability to a World Wonder? Once a game sounds much better to me than once a GP.

 

[Alzara]

How about some magical garden wonder available with one of the magic techs (maybe Sorcery).

"Provides 3 reagents."

This could be quite cool

Al

 

[Celenduil]

How about some magical garden wonder available with one of the magic techs (maybe Sorcery).

"Provides 3 reagents."

This could be quite cool

Al

Maybe Amurite-specific, to make up for their now useless world spell.

 

[Mortenart]

I don`t think it`s feasible for GPs to just pop resources - the only time a resource might be hidden is with ore (and maybe ocean-based resources), but copper/silver/gold/iron/mithril/gems/gunpowder appear anyway throughout the game. The herding/transplanting option would be a lot more fun to play with, but I do agree that the AI might suffer a hit if they can`t grasp the mechanics. Coupled with the possibility of wilderness (similar to ocean for triremes in older versions of Civ), it would make the hunt for new resources a great new focus for the game. Imagine your intrepid explorer (or great person) finally making it through the deep jungle where many others have failed, and discovering the world`s only source of reagents, in a place too inhospitable and distant to build a city. He gathers them up, sets off for home and re-plants them on a nice bit of pasture outside his hometown, sits back and watches them grow (would take a number of turns for them to take to the new soil). Your city might need just one resource to make it flourish. With this option, it could do just that.

 

[Alzara]

The Amurite world spell is useless? How so?

Al

 

[mtagge]

I don't think it is unreasonable for a GP to add a new resource to the map. Then the great merchant breeds animals to create a new pasture. The example for the Engineer would be he has enough experience working with iron, he now knows how he can extract it from this plot. To not be overpowered it would just have to be comparable to the same GP settled, i.e. 3, 3 . More if running Scholarship, Caste System, have the Great Library, are Sidar, Theater of Dreams, etc. And the chance to not choose the resource would balance it out (imagine drawing Mithril and not having the tech to reveal it yet )

For the Grigori, gives them something to do when they pop a non-adventurer. Or let the adventures pop completely randomly.

 

[Tyrs]

I can see how the GP system would work, it just doesn't sound that interesting to me. What I think would be much more fun is the idea that you could pick up existing resources and move them with recon units, possibly requiring some new promotion. That way you could either use the resources of far away lands, or better yet, steal the herds of your enemies. People have been stealing each other's sheep since the dawn of time. This should probably only work on animals, and maybe a few plants. I like how hard it is to get reagents, it gives my Amurites an incentive to go out and conquer, or colonize. I feel like that problem was fixed in one of the patches anyway, I see reagents all the time.
Back to the resource stealing, perhaps it could work by removing the resource and giving the unit a promotion, which would slow it down, and possibly weaken it, but allows it to place that resource in your lands, removing the promotion. You could steal stuff, but it'd make you easier to kill and steal back. On death, the resource should be dropped, like how Treants place forests on death

 

[mtagge]

@Tyrs
Easily done that way with the current FFH spell system. The question is would it cause a DOW? What if a resource was stolen inside the fat cross of a city but before the border popped? Or how about the inside square when a city is in revolt? Stealing and moving resources is too easily exploited by human players and is impossible to have the AI do properly. Already in FFH we have a system that is too heavily weighted to humans. Then how much micromanagement do you want the game to include? Then consider that the plots do not indicate that the resource is there, it represents fertile land, or good grazing land, not the cows themselves. Sure you could steal 100 cows, but the land would still be just as good for raising new cattle. Then there is the question of the micromanagment if a buildable unit can do it. How is it different than having a druid go around and turn all desert into forested grassland?

Far too many loopholes and gotchas to consider moving resources around without severe restrictions. New resources OTOH can be programmed into the AI.

 

[Tyrs]

Very true, I hadn't really thought that much about how it could be manipulated.

 

[nihonjeff]

I'm digging the idea of sacrificing a GP in a city to pop an appropriate resource somewhere in the civ's cultural boundaries. With as valuable and versatile as Great People are, I simply don't see this mechanic being abused. Nobody is going to use EVERY GP they get to find resources. I see this functioning as a last resort, when nobody's trading the resource in question, and conquest is (for whatever reason) not an option.

 

[Mortenart]

@Tyrs
Then consider that the plots do not indicate that the resource is there, it represents fertile land, or good grazing land, not the cows themselves. Sure you could steal 100 cows, but the land would still be just as good for raising new cattle.

Cattle don`t just spring out of thin air. You have to have the livestock in the first place to produce more livestock. A farmer in Argentina couldn`t suddenly start breeding Welsh sheep, unless he imported them, or.. er.. stole them (unlikey to happen). Perhaps when you trade a resource such as sheep with another Civ, you could choose a tile to put them that would benefit a particular city. Virtually zero micromanagement involved in this or the rustling option.

 

[nihonjeff]

Cattle don`t just spring out of thin air. You have to have the livestock in the first place to produce more livestock.

Again, the mechanic would not represent a Great Person waving their hands in the air and having cows shoot out their fingers. If you really need to justify it that badly, just tell yourself that it represents the culmination of that Great Person's long and careful breeding program, begun 40 turns ago when they secretly journeyed into Hippus lands and made a deal with a poor farmer for some of his stock. The moment the "spell" is executed to create the resource tile only represents the moment that his breeding program becomes profitable and self-sustaining.

Perhaps when you trade a resource such as sheep with another Civ, you could choose a tile to put them that would benefit a particular city. Virtually zero micromanagement involved in this or the rustling option.

For the first option, how would the game track which resources were granted by which trades, and what happens to the resource square when a civ decides to cancel the deal? And if you offer a resource in trade, do you have to select one of your resource tiles to give up?

For the rustling option, how is marching your Great Person into enemy lands, finding a resource, casting the spell to steal the resource, bringing your Great Person back into your lands, finding the right spot, and casting the spell again to plant the resource less micromanagement than simply casting a spell a single time and being done with it?

 

[Mortenart]

For the rustling option, how is marching your Great Person into enemy lands, finding a resource, casting the spell to steal the resource, bringing your Great Person back into your lands, finding the right spot, and casting the spell again to plant the resource less micromanagement than simply casting a spell a single time and being done with it?

To me, that is not micromanagement, it is playing the game, and would be something that I would really enjoy doing. If you want to sit back and let the computer do everything for you, fine, but then what`s the point in playing the game? My original idea did not involve GPs at all in fact. What I would like to see is a unique "prospector" unit (of which you could only have one at any one time), who could explore new lands and return with new resources, transferring them to your own lands. He would be expensive to build, vulnerable to attack, and also slowed down on his return journey, so the challenge would be there and I don`t believe that the new mechanic would be overpowered. Only prob is the AI having no clue about it.

 

[nihonjeff]

To me, that is not micromanagement, it is playing the game, and would be something that I would really enjoy doing. If you want to sit back and let the computer do everything for you, fine, but then what`s the point in playing the game? My original idea did not involve GPs at all in fact. What I would like to see is a unique "prospector" unit (of which you could only have one at any one time), who could explore new lands and return with new resources, transferring them to your own lands. He would be expensive to build, vulnerable to attack, and also slowed down on his return journey, so the challenge would be there and I don`t believe that the new mechanic would be overpowered. Only prob is the AI having no clue about it.

A fair point, and one that I can't argue with because it comes down to a difference in what we see this mechanic accomplishing. Personally, I see it as a mechanic to address game imbalance -- if an Ashen Veil player can't get their hands on Reagents through trade or conquest, they are crippled in the late game because they can't build Archmages or their priest line. A mechanic like this would address that issue, as well as adding more flexibility to Great People (which has been a common complaint on these boards).

On the other hand, you seem to see this mechanic as adding another facet to the exploration aspect, and which would also address the issues above. To what degree depends on how you'd see the "Prospector" unit implemented. You mentioned a player could only have one at a time. Would the unit be able to make multiple trips into other territories to bring back several different resources? Would "harvesting" a tile destroy the resource, or would the Prospector be able to make multiple trips back to the same well? How would this unit handle mined resources (gold, iron, etc.)? Or would it only work for plants and animals? Could it be used to transplant resources from one city to another within the player's own empire?

I think either mechanic would represent an improvement to the game, but I feel like a "Prospector" unit option would be very exploitable, and depending on how it's implemented, it could create more problems than it solves. Personally, I think the Great Persons option is a more functional (if less fun) solution.

 

[Tarquelne]

Personally, I see it as a mechanic to address game imbalance -- if an Ashen Veil player can't get their hands on Reagents through trade or conquest, they are crippled in the late game because they can't build Archmages or their priest line.

If an AV civ cant get it's hands on Reagents through trade, and can't through conquest... then I think it should be "crippled."

On the one hand, if a specific resource - or resources in general - are generally placed on maps too infrequently then something should be done. But I don't think this is the case...

OTOH, a new way of getting resources shouldn't be implemented just to more or less ensure civs get the resources they desire. Especially if the "new way" is significantly more useful to human players than to AIs. And I suspect this one would be.

In short I see someone being hindered - even severely - by lack of a resource as the Resource system doing it's job, not as an imbalance to fix.

 

[nihonjeff]

In short I see someone being hindered - even severely - by lack of a resource as the Resource system doing it's job, not as an imbalance to fix.

On a certain level, I agree with you. There should be no guarantee that a player acquires every resource in every game. But everyone has been in a situation where they lack a certain critical resource to build a certain critical unit or a certain critical building, and, for whatever reason (logistics or even straight-up roleplaying) they can't get it. Heck, I've had games where I've had no metals in my home territory at all, and was surrounded by allied nations that I didn't want to war with for RP purposes, and whose trade demands were outlandish due to the difficulty level. And if you're talking about something like Reagents for AV, it's a disadvantage that has the potential to be game-wrecking.

Again, I'm not advocating a Monty Hall system where players can spawn new resources all over the map, but rather a measured mechanic that can allow for players in situations like those above to acquire necessary resources without having to open up Worldbuilder to do so. It would require careful planning (to make sure you pop the correct GP for the resource you need), risk (because it might pop a different resource than what you need), and sacrifice (losing the GP to do it).

Especially with a game that is as time-intensive as Civ, I think players should be able to play the type of game they want to play. If the mechanic doesn't tick your tock, don't use it. But if a player wants to play a Builder-style game without having to war with their neighbors in order to get the resources they need, they should be able to do that as well.

 

[Tarquelne]

But everyone has been in a situation where they lack a certain critical resource to build a certain critical unit or a certain critical building, and, for whatever reason (logistics or even straight-up roleplaying) they can't get it....

And I think all of that is _good_.

a measured mechanic ... It would require careful planning (to make sure you pop the correct GP for the resource you need), risk (because it might pop a different resource than what you need), and sacrifice (losing the GP to do it).

"A measured mechanic" sounds right. However, I'm dubious about how "careful" the planning would need to be, and how much of a sacrifice a GP would be when balanced against the result. The risk of getting the wrong resource, OTOH, might make the mechanic risky enough.

I think players should be able to play the type of game they want to play.

I agree... with certain important qualifiers. I think what we're discussing is a very basic distinction: Civ4 as "game", and Civ4 as "software toy." There's nothing wrong with either way, but the desired level of challenge vs. freedom is probably very different. With a "game" challenge is generally more important than freedom. With a "toy" that's reversed. I see the Resource system as a fundamental part of what makes Civ4 challenging, a good "game" to which you sometimes must adapt, or lose.

Another way to get resources - if it isn't carefully "measured" - undercuts that system. Great for Civ4 as "toy", not so good for Civ4 as "game.

If the mechanic doesn't tick your tock, don't use it.

I find refraining from using certain tactics, units, etc. very unsatisfying. I'd much rather mod it, remove it, or, sometimes, advocate it not be included at all.

But if a player wants to play a Builder-style game without having to war with their neighbors in order to get the resources they need, they should be able to do that as well.

I think we've got two fundamental points of disagreement. That's the first one: I don't agree any Resources are "needed" to play, or that there "should" be another way to get them. If I'm playing a Builder-style game I either shift "styles", or muddle on without. As an evil civ, as a matter of fact, I relish the excuse to nurse a grudge.

The other point, or maybe it's just an extension of the first, is: I think resources are already too common. Even after moding things a bit I still find myself in the position where I lack a desired Resource less often than I'd like. So, obviously, I'm going to see any mechanic that makes getting Resources easier in a poor light.

 

[nihonjeff]

I think we've got two fundamental points of disagreement. That's the first one: I don't agree any Resources are "needed" to play, or that there "should" be another way to get them. If I'm playing a Builder-style game I either shift "styles", or muddle on without. As an evil civ, as a matter of fact, I relish the excuse to nurse a grudge.

And I think this is probably the point where we agree to disagree. I tend to prefer the freedom-oriented game. While I concur that a player must adapt to survive, and flaws in overall strategy should be fatal, there are times when a single factor that is outside of a player's control can ruin a game. And if the player has already invested hours of time in building up a game, their time is essentially wasted... not a pleasant feeling if you're like me and only get a couple of hours a week to game. Other safety nets exist -- Earth mana offers the chance of spawning Gems and metals, the loss of an experienced hero on a 98% attack can be mitigated with the Resurrection spell. This is just one more safety net to help stave off potentially game-breaking bad luck.

Of course, from another perspective, my main support for this mechanic hinges on the whole Ashen Veil / Reagents dependency. Maybe the simple fact that we're debating the implementation of a new mechanic to try and stabilize it is a clue that the dependency itself is flawed...

 

[Alzara]

The dependency is a little irritating, I must say. However, I always seem to find reagents now (whereas they were often missing in 0.30). I don't know whether or not it is my luck, but I always seem to have a source lying around somewhere near to my starting location in 0.31e.

Al

 

[Lutefisk Mafia]

This thread caught my attention -- I have already implemented this idea in my Dungeon Adventure mod mod of FfH2.

Most bonuses are able to be picked up by units, carried, and then dropped elsewhere. Simple python checks make sure that a player can't drop a bonus on a tile already containing one.

While carrying a bonus, the player unit has a special promotion related to the bonus. For example, while carrying horses, I use "PROMOTION_MOUNTED" as a marker. In my mod mod, it gives the unit extra movement. Carrying some of the bonuses into cities allows for construction of special buildings.

Frankly, this mechanism can be used for improvements and terrain features, too, if you really wanted to.