Has there ever been a point where communism worked well?

[LightSpectra]

I'm still trying to understand how people can still believe communism is an exceptional system when there hasn't been a single point in history I can think of where it has been.

 

[MadScotsMan]

as long as teenage idealism exists so will communism

 

[The Yankee]

Maybe in a Utopian society. But those are very small and very isolated.

 

[The Gonzo]

I'm still trying to understand how people can still believe communism is an exceptional system when there hasn't been a single point in history I can think of where it has been.

Let's assume for one moment that you are correct that communism has never been tried. Whenever people have attempted to set up a communist government, genocidal dictators have taken over and the country's economy becomes a breadbasket. Not a very successful form of government.

 

[LightSpectra]

Let's assume for one moment that you are correct that communism has never been tried.

... what?

Maybe in a Utopian society. But those are very small and very isolated.

A Utopian society wouldn't need a government at all.

 

[The Gonzo]

... what?

Oh. Sorry. I thought you were arguing for communism, because it had never been tried properly.

My mistake.

 

[1889]

Now is true communism where everybody is equally poor, or is it "from each according to his ability to each according to his need"? Because the latter would require a well armed government to redistribute the poverty.

Marx and company couldn't have been that naive. Could some one give a short summary?

 

[MadScotsMan]

yeah they were that naive, thinking everybody could be equal bah

 

[The Yankee]

A Utopian society wouldn't need a government at all.

Wasn't that the ultimate goal? Or at least something that was in essence close to it, with all needs provided and the communal sharing of everything.

Either way, the only way I think it'd really work would be in some tiny, isolated community like that.

 

[MadScotsMan]

where no one was alive, sure a utopia would work...well it sort of worked in The Villiage..

 

[LightSpectra]

Either way, the only way I think it'd really work would be in some tiny, isolated community like that.

The fact that it would only work in a small community shows how unstable it is.

 

[1889]

Weren't New England's puritan settlers communists?

 

[Plotinus]

The Jesuit-run regime in seventeenth- and eighteenth-century Paraguay is the obvious example of a highly successful society that was run along what we would now consider communist lines. For a century and a half there was a pretty much ideal society with communal property and lifestyles and the highest literacy levels in the world.

Of course, the classic example of a successful communist society is the very first Christian church, as described in Acts 2:44-46. But there's considerable doubt over whether that's an accurate description of what really happened or just a later idealisation.

 

[Verbose]

Communism in itself might as well mean communitarianism, or some form of "redistributive economy" model, something like what Ancient Egypt practised. That obviously worked well for them.

Really, this isn't just about semantics, but about how differently societies can be organised at different places and times, and the problem of analysing and explaining them. What's meant not just by "Communism" but also by "working well"? For whom? According to what standard?

 

[skovac]

You can also look at ancient Sparta as communism - all citizens were equal in property and way of life (they life didnt belong to themselves but to the fatherland, as was written in Lykurgos constitution), since age of 6 they were educated by state, were obliged to contribute to common needs (syssitia), disallowed to use money, common ownership of wifes and children D it is said that jealousy didnt exist in Sparta).
This is offcourse true only about citizens, for Heilots the life was more like hell.

 

[Italian Celtic]

Communists are crazy
they think that impoverishing the rich ones they can enrich poor ones
ah ah ah

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Depends on what you mean by "work well". If you were an insider in the party, it probably worked well enough for you. You could get a state-owned car and a state-owned dacha for your family, with a couple loyal party faithful allowed to clean the state-owned dacha for you (I mean for the honor of the state... sorry for the slip of tongue).

If you were a laborer actually doing the work or anyone non-party, it becomes questionable whether it worked for you.

edit - I don't believe "working well" is really the goal of the system. The system does not place economic growth anywhere on the list of what is "good" within the confines of the system, and as such, refuses to incentivize it.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, even the leaders of Soviet Union did not call the USSR's regime "Communism". It was merely "Socialism".

 

[LightSpectra]

The Jesuit-run regime in seventeenth- and eighteenth-century Paraguay is the obvious example of a highly successful society that was run along what we would now consider communist lines. For a century and a half there was a pretty much ideal society with communal property and lifestyles and the highest literacy levels in the world.

Interesting. Could you provide a few more details on this?

 

[Plotinus]

The best book on this subject - indeed, to my knowledge, the only book on this subject - is F. Reiter, They built Utopia: the Jesuit missions in Paraguay, 1610-1768 Potomac, MD: Scripta Humanistica 1995. There is also some information here, though it's from the Catholic Encyclopaedia, which means it's a century old and pretty reliable on facts (by the standards of the time) though not so reliable on interpretation and evaluation. It's striking that even the authors of the Catholic Encyclopaedia considered the "Thirty Missions" to have been essentially a successful communist society, although they are at pains to distance it from modern materialist communism.

Here is a brief thing I wrote on the subject a while ago:

In 1609, the Spanish crown granted the Jesuits control of a vast area, mostly modern-day Paraguay, though also including much of Argentina, Brazil and Bolivia. The area was inhabited by a people called the Guaraní, and the Jesuits aimed to help them live in liberty and enlightenment. An extraordinary plan was initiated, under the guidance of Diego de Torres, a Peruvian Jesuit who set out a clear and far-sighted vision for the mission stations or “Reductions” that would be built. In all, over a period of forty years, thirty of these Reductions were built, each housing several thousand Guaraní. In these “Thirty Missions”, the Jesuits tried to help the Guaraní better themselves as far as possible through developing their own culture rather than simply importing European ways of life. The attempt was enormously successful, and the Guaraní flourished. Each Reduction was planned around a large central square with crosses at each corner, dominated by a large church, complete with living quarters for the local clergy and the town’s municipal buildings. The other three sides of the square would be lined with the houses of the Guaraní, all standard, one-storey structures built of stone and clay. The church, by contrast, large enough to contain all the townsfolk, would be built of wood using traditional local methods. The people would tend their own fields and also communal fields and cattle farms, belonging to the whole community. People’s lives were regulated rather like a giant monastery, with allotted hours for work, for prayer, and for rest. The entire population would attend Mass every day, and the children learned to recite the catechism twice daily, as well as being taught to read and write. And the pride of every Reduction was its choir and band, usually made up of thirty to forty musicians. Every church had an organ, and the Guaraní played a huge variety of traditional and European instruments, made in local workshops. They played in church and also in the fields to encourage the workers, and many travelled to Buenos Aires and other cities to perform recitals.

Although the Reduction would have a mayor and a town council, it was really run by the “cura”, a Jesuit priest, and his assistant, who ran the church, organised trade, and administered justice. The people’s faith in these priests was absolute and their decisions were never challenged. For, fortunately, it seems that their decisions were generally wise, and the people they governed were extraordinarily well behaved. In this way, in this huge but remote region, a handful of Jesuits and many thousands of Christian Guaraní succeeded in building a well-nigh perfect society, where people worked for the common good, and one which endured for nearly a century and a half. Unfortunately, the dream was shattered in 1750 when the Spanish handed much of the area over to the Portuguese, who tried to take direct control. The Guaraní rebelled with the aid of the Jesuits, but lost, and the Jesuits were expelled for helping them.