[GS] Have I pushed science too hard?

[dthompson32]

I've got an emperor game as China that I am fooling around with trying to learn the balance to get faster Science victories. I'm pretty isolated on one side of a mountain range with lots of places for +4 and +5 campuses.

On my first play through on this I have about 8 cities at turn 150 pushing over 250 science and just got chemistry, but culture is pretty weak, around 60ish. What I am finding is my techs are being finished before I can meet the eureka requirements. I simply can't build things fast enough before I have the next tech complete.

I'm pretty sure that I just neglected production too much in the early game and probably chopped through too many resources.

So my question, when people go for fast SVs, do they generally get all the eurekas? Or do they just crank up the science and blow past them, working on late game eurekas?

 

[Bibor]

Eurekas are simply a way of not penalizing you for investing into something other than tech. For example, if you build an aqueduct that costs 36 production, you get a 100+ beaker discount for military engineering. If you need an aqueduct anyway - great! If not, well..., maybe its better for long-term to build a campus in that city instead.

Utilize them where it fits your needs. If you don't need galleys, don't bother with the eureka for shipbuilding.

 

[Victoria]

So my question, when people go for fast SVs, do they generally get all the eurekas?

No, you have to judge what you can get... for example building 3 biplanes or 3 airports is just stupid.... however they still can take a few turns to get so building Oxford university gives you a chance to get these eurekas. Spies possibly can if someone like Gilga has been encouraged.
TBH 250 science at T150 is not really strong enough.

• Are you using specialists?
• Have you Built Kilwa Kiwisani
• Have you got any specialists thatgive +science to buildings
• Yes you have great adjacency but do your cities have 10 pop? The Rationalism card gives 50% for +3 adjacency and +3 for 10 pop... this is well worth pursuing.
• Do all your cities have campus with uni?

If the majority of bullets have been met you probably do not have enough cities... 15-20 normally is about right but more is merrier.... a little bit.

Even some earlier ones like having a musketman kill a unit is often not worth it.

Your culture is way too low, you need to be doing the following after getting your army out and finishing phase 2.

1. Rush to rocketry and get that spaceport up ASAP (buy or chop is fast)
2. Then launch your satellite amd moon landing ASAP (chop is common)
3. This moon landing gives you a massive boost to culture and if you were high enough up the culture tree you can get to globalization really fast.
4. After globalization you are somewhere around 1500-2000 science per turn and finishing techs every turn. So then the eurekas are not important anymore, it is the top of the science path that has the key eurekas getting to the moon landing. But it is the middle culture inspirations that allow you to ignore late science eurekas.

So you see culture is also important, in some ways more important, especially those middle insprirations like 4 trade routes, 3 corps, an arch museum. This gets you high enough to reach globalisation as long as your science was super strong on the turn of landing on the moon. The Chinese chop in science projects on that turn as basically they are projects that are 11 times the strength of a normal project. (1xscience and 10xculture)

... hopefully you are now appreciating that a fast SV is quite complex to speed up and takes planning. When you have a game and your moon landing gets you to globalization with every civic taking 1 turn you know you got it right. Hopefully you are appreciating the chop is hugely valuable, the right amount at the right time take practice. THIS is a real strategy game, a fast SV.

@Bibor galleys are not just for ship building because they turn into caravels. Whether you build caravels and harbours is something you need to assess for fast SV not for the need of the unit but will they reduce my victory time. I could tell you what I think but it’s more fun to fill in the detail yourself, and you remember it better.... and I may be wrong.

 

[Bibor]

I could tell you what I think but it’s more fun to fill in the detail yourself

Thinking I can do just fine, but this is knowledge. Which I lack, as I started playing just recently. Apart from era score for circumnavigation and meeting (city) states I see no reason for two caravels or harbors, as I usually circumnavigate the globe with scouts or horsemen. I usually play on a small map, so there's that as well. On that note, I'm not sure how feasible it is to get 15-20 cities, since that's basically a conquest victory on a small map. It'd mean taking out 2 civs, and by that time... It's basically endgame.

 

[Cherenkov]

The other reason why culture is so important is because you need to get a T3 government to build the Royal Society. This allows you to use builders to help speed up the space projects after you built the spaceport.

As Victoria outlined globalization is important because of the International Space Agency card which gives you 5% science per suzerain. Eliminating 3-4 civs means less competition for city states and more suzerains so more science. Once you finish globalization then follow the top line of the civics tree if you missed some civics up there and you'll get tons of envoys. But you should be suzerain with at least 5-6 CS before that even happens, 10 is a good target to give you a 50% to science. Use Amani and pay attention to CS quests and the card that gives two envoys per 1st CS to get suzerain easier.

Conquest not only helps with eurekas, suzerains but also helps with faith regen(let AI build the holy sites) which helps you knock out builders faster when you have a golden age and monumentality. In GotM 58 between GotH and over +180 fpt I had a literal army of builders ready to speed up my space projects, at one time I had about 20 builders waiting their turn. Having multiple spaceports makes this whole process go faster.

If you don't have many workers then you'll need a lot of production from your spaceport cities so plan ahead. Factories are not required but they help especially strategically placed ones near mines and card to give 100% adj to IZ.

 

[dthompson32]

Thanks everyone, not going to respond point by point, there is a lot of great advice here. Definitely know about getting the moon shot to get to Globalism.

Some pieces of info I didn't have, like targeting 15 to 20 cities. What is the best way to get them? Chop them out with Magnus? Buy them with faith? Get them up by T100?

To answer Victoria, the answer to most of those questions are no, cities aren't at 10, I put everything into getting districts and universities up.

I've got a turn 94 play through active with 4 cities and 4 settlers moving, but I feel that is too slow also. I tried hard building settlers to save my chops for later. Not the right strategy, and I'm probably letting good land get taken by the AI.

 

[dthompson32]

I forgot to mention, this is a large Pangaea map. I usually play large maps, I like having more land to explore.

 

[Victoria]

What is the best way to get them?

Play GOTM58 here News: Civ VI 6otM number 58 Announcement
Then after you have played it look at the AOR and AAR threads for GOTM58 and you will see exactly how people get sub 200 science victories ending with over 2k science per turn.

Basically the cost of settlers increases with each one so producing 8 is fine but 18 is not so much. You really need to conquer lots. And also grow to 10.

 

[dthompson32]

That is very helpful. I had a SV victory with Kupe last week that seemed to go very quickly, even though it was a 235 finish and far from perfect. But I had an early conquest of the Incas.

Australia is going to have a bad night I am afraid.

 

[dthompson32]

I've run through this game twice now I gotten a 218 and next a 215 Science Victory.

The first time I had spaceport at turn 161, I forgot to build Royal Society and lost turns. I also didn't have enough science so that the Moon Mission left me with 9 turns to get Globalization and I hadn't built airports.

The second time I could have built the spaceport on turn 159, but made a mistake on governors and Reyna wasn't promoted high enough yet. I also didn't have enough cash. Big Ben was ready to be built, but there was no point since Reyna wasn't ready. I probably lost 9 turns or so. But I had a much stronger base of Science with 26 cities, max was slightly over 2000. I also had 6 Coal Plants/Factories feeding the Spaceport city with Magnus in it.

I'll probably try again and see if I can do the governors right.

 

[dthompson32]

I've been fussing with this game a few times through now, obviously knowing the map helps a lot. I finally got a good balance of campus, commercial districts, and theaters to get a T201 victory. My strategy this time was to get my wonders built, get campus and govt plaza up, then build my army. I always head up and take out Netherlands then Australia to get up to 20ish cities. I'm ready to buy the spaceport around turn 155. Speeding up Big Ben would help. I'm selling my relic early after I have religion up to help with early cash flow. Once a GW shows up I am selling the books for 100s of GPT to build a large cash reserve for Big Ben. Royal society is taking a few turns too long between Democracy and Globalization and being ready to build the mars mission.

I'm attaching my turn 1 save and my 201 SV in case someone is interested in taking a crack at it. I'm sure this could be sped up more, there are still some good city sites available and 4 science CSs in the game.

 

[Salamis]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest, thank you for sharing.

Another tip to save turns at the end is to have 4 or more spaceports on sites that have at least 7 forest/stone/deer plots to chop the projects. Explore throughout to find appropriate sites. Affording that many spaceports is tough. If you can get Goddess of the Harvest then that will significantly help buying some with Faith.

 

[Victoria]

Once a GW shows up I am selling the books for 100s of GPT to build a large cash reserve for Big Ben.

Sounds like you are near ready to play games from scratch and try and remember everything you have to do. You get the idea that turns 80-120 is for planning as well as chopping.

have 4 or more spaceports on sites that have at least 7 forest/stone/deer plots to chop the projects

you do not really need these but if you can get them then sure. That’s a lot of gold to save that could have shaved turns off in other ways.
Because you rush to moon landing you have a natural gap between projects at the end so chopping really only speeds up the ending for your last and first. General consensus is 2-3 spaceports. Chop in the moon landing for speed (unless waiting on better science) worker project the others apart from the last. Two exceptions to this rule would be Mansa and Monty.

Big Ben is normally not built for sub 150’s. The public Transport card is a great money maker and their doubling the value of this card in full knowledge of its exploitable side indicates that is acceptable (weirdly)

 

[kb27787]

Sounds like you are near ready to play games from scratch and try and remember everything you have to do. You get the idea that turns 80-120 is for planning as well as chopping.
you do not really need these but if you can get them then sure. That’s a lot of gold to save that could have shaved turns off in other ways.
Because you rush to moon landing you have a natural gap between projects at the end so chopping really only speeds up the ending for your last and first. General consensus is 2-3 spaceports. Chop in the moon landing for speed (unless waiting on better science) worker project the others apart from the last. Two exceptions to this rule would be Mansa and Monty.

Big Ben is normally not built for sub 150’s. The public Transport card is a great money maker and their doubling the value of this card in full knowledge of its exploitable side indicates that is acceptable (weirdly)

I'm pretty sure this is no longer broken... Now you need to finish the neighborhood before you are allowed to plant the next one. (it was this way with mbanzas from what I noticed so regular neighborhoods should be the same)