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Haven't played in a while and am trying to get a grasp on prehistoric era once more.

Discussion in 'Strategy and tips' started by Ultimate_Waffle, Jul 4, 2019.

  1. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    Each education tier consist of two buildings, one that can only be in the capital city, and another that can be in all cities. The capital city can therefore potentially get two buildings per education tier.

    The one that can only be in the capital city does not have any tech requirement so you can all of them in the prehistoric era. Their only effect are to give longer anarchy time on civic change for positive education and shorter anarchy time for negative education. This penalty/bonus is not significant enough to care much about in the early game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  2. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    The 1st step was 25 points then it changed. I do not have the exact numerical progression memorized. And No it did not even go back to 200,000 in either direction for range back then in time. The range was smaller the steps on either side got progressively larger.
    No version from June of 2018 is v38.5 and not the latest version. It is the last Official release though. We are in a freeze period for modder testing for the purpose to get The v39 Official release out, soon. But some of our modders are still adding stuff instead of testing. This slows down the test period Before an Official release.

    But to get the very latest version of C2C you need to have the SourceForge SVN for Caveman2Cosmos set up on your computer. Steps to do so are in the 1st Post of the SVN Changelog Thread. How to set up the SVN so that you can always be "up to date" is detailed there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  3. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Then what is the purpose anymore for these Buildings? Here are the 1st 2 listed in the SpecialBuildings file (and they get progressively worse or better):

    Code:
    <BuildingInfo>
       <!-- Education (Unaware) -->
       <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_EQ_MINUS1</BuildingClass>
       <Type>BUILDING_EQ_MINUS1</Type>
       <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_EQ_MINUS1</Description>
       <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_EQ_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
       <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_EQ_STRATEGY</Strategy>
       <Advisor>ADVISOR_SCIENCE</Advisor>
       <!-- Graphical and interface -->
       <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_EQ</ArtDefineTag>
       <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
                <MapCategoryTypes>
        <MapCategoryType>MAPCATEGORY_EARTH</MapCategoryType>
       </MapCategoryTypes>
       <!-- Construction cost -->
       <iCost>-1</iCost>
       <!-- Main effects -->
       <YieldModifiers>
        <iYield>0</iYield>
        <iYield>-5</iYield>
        <iYield>-5</iYield>
       </YieldModifiers>
       <CommerceChanges>
        <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
        <iCommerce>-1</iCommerce>
       </CommerceChanges>
       <CommerceModifiers>
        <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
        <iCommerce>-5</iCommerce>
       </CommerceModifiers>
       <!-- Great People effects -->
       <iGreatPeopleRateModifier>-1</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
       <!-- Misc. Effects -->
       <iWarWearinessModifier>-1</iWarWearinessModifier>
       <iTradeRouteModifier>-1</iTradeRouteModifier>
       <iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>-10</iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>
       <!-- Special properties -->
       <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
       <!-- Properties diffusion -->
       <Properties>
        <Property>
         <PropertyType>PROPERTY_FLAMMABILITY</PropertyType>
         <iPropertyValue>1</iPropertyValue>
        </Property>
       </Properties>
       <PropertyManipulators>
        <PropertySource>
         <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
         <PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
         <iAmountPerTurn>1</iAmountPerTurn>
        </PropertySource>
        <PropertySource>
         <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
         <PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
         <iAmountPerTurn>1</iAmountPerTurn>
        </PropertySource>
       </PropertyManipulators>
      </BuildingInfo>
      <BuildingInfo>
       <!-- Education (Foolish) -->
       <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_EQ_MINUS2</BuildingClass>
       <Type>BUILDING_EQ_MINUS2</Type>
       <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_EQ_MINUS2</Description>
       <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_EQ_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
       <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_EQ_STRATEGY</Strategy>
       <Advisor>ADVISOR_SCIENCE</Advisor>
       <!-- Graphical and interface -->
       <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_EQ</ArtDefineTag>
       <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
       <!-- Prerequisites -->
                <MapCategoryTypes>
        <MapCategoryType>MAPCATEGORY_EARTH</MapCategoryType>
       </MapCategoryTypes>
       <PrereqTech>TECH_SEDENTARY_LIFESTYLE</PrereqTech>
       <!-- Construction cost -->
       <iCost>-1</iCost>
       <!-- Main effects -->
       <YieldModifiers>
        <iYield>0</iYield>
        <iYield>-5</iYield>
        <iYield>-5</iYield>
       </YieldModifiers>
       <CommerceChanges>
        <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
        <iCommerce>-1</iCommerce>
       </CommerceChanges>
       <CommerceModifiers>
        <iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
        <iCommerce>-5</iCommerce>
       </CommerceModifiers>
       <!-- Specialist effects -->
       <iFreeSpecialist>-1</iFreeSpecialist>
       <!-- Great People effects -->
       <iGreatPeopleRateModifier>-3</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
       <iGreatGeneralRateModifier>-1</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
       <!-- Misc. Effects -->
       <iWarWearinessModifier>-1</iWarWearinessModifier>
       <iTradeRouteModifier>-2</iTradeRouteModifier>
       <iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>-10</iPopulationgrowthratepercentage>
       <!-- Special properties -->
       <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
       <!-- Properties diffusion -->
       <Properties>
        <Property>
         <PropertyType>PROPERTY_FLAMMABILITY</PropertyType>
         <iPropertyValue>1</iPropertyValue>
        </Property>
       </Properties>
       <PropertyManipulators>
        <PropertySource>
         <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
         <PropertyType>PROPERTY_CRIME</PropertyType>
         <iAmountPerTurn>2</iAmountPerTurn>
        </PropertySource>
        <PropertySource>
         <PropertySourceType>PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT</PropertySourceType>
         <PropertyType>PROPERTY_DISEASE</PropertyType>
         <iAmountPerTurn>2</iAmountPerTurn>
        </PropertySource>
       </PropertyManipulators>
      </BuildingInfo>
      <BuildingInfo>
    
    As you can see they do a heck of a lot more than what you say can happen. Are they Now just worthless non used Special buildings??? Ignored by current Mod coding???

    And this is just the tip of the Education Iceberg. Look at that file at the Lines I posted, 2406 thry 3997.
     
  4. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    They do pretty much what I said they did...

    As you can see, the second building have:
    <PrereqTech>TECH_SEDENTARY_LIFESTYLE</PrereqTech>
    So it won't exist in any cities before the ancient era.

    The first one does:
    The Second one does
    And together they do:
    , and a couple more modifiers that are all negative.
     
  5. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    So at some point in time T-brd or someone else added a PrereqTech after the 1st one. This change has really watered down the Education Property from what it originally was.

    Too bad Crime has not been watered down as bad as Education has.

    This still does not explain why you need so many Story Tellers then Bards, etc to keep a city in the positive Education range.

    But does mena that now Education can be relatively ignored for most of the game with little adverse effects upon game play. Sad, Truly Sad. :(
     
  6. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    "Rel. ignored for most of the game" is imo an overstatement, even a -10% penalty to yields and commerces can be annoying already in the ancient era for your two/three biggest cities.
    In the classical era, you have to watch out for that -15% penalty.
    etc.

    But a -5% in the prehistoric most often doesn't even add up to -1 absolute losses in yields or commerces as the yield/commerce output of prehistoric cities is usually not as high as 20.
    5% of 19 is 0.
    5% of 20 is 1.
    5% of 39 is 1.
    Due to the game following a rounding down scheme.

    Not to mention the increase in disease and crime that these negative education buildings give. (Among the "a couple more modifiers that are all negative." that I mentioned)
    With only the one edu. building in preh. era it is not hard to handle this penalty, but this gets increasingly harder with the additional education penalties buildings you can get in the later eras.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    OK.

    I did start off with all levels being possible right out the gate, but found that it made the swing between the difficulty levels too severe. The easier difficulty levels would easily get super high bonuses and the hardest would helplessly careen into being economically choked off from nearly any research being possible at all, exacerbating its own problems.

    A happy medium was found by gradually unlocking the severities of the education levels, and it logically made sense as well because as there is more for the average person in a society to learn, there is a wider and wider potential gap between the society that is largely up to speed with modern knowledge and one where the people are desperately undereducated.

    The progression of unlocking further depths of possible undereducation and high education penalties and benefits with each lifestyle era has become not only an almost perfect curve for balanced gameplay, it also gives a lot more strength to the interesting decision of when and how aggressively to shoot for unlocking the next era as well. If you've been letting your education slip, whether due to negligence, distraction, or strategically to help grow your cities faster or diminish your anarchy by letting it falter in the capital in preparation for a large set of civic changes or to help diminish war weariness, then charging into the next Era should be delayed, even if you aren't using Beeline stings, because you'll get hurt further by the new degree of undereducation penalties that open up there. On the flip side, if you are truly prepared to enter the next era because your people are heavily enlightened, great, do it asap to get as much modifier benefits as you can as quickly as you can. It makes a lot of sense, actually.

    It did dilute education a little - but that was because it needed it. The game gets more and more serious about needing to pay attention to education as it goes, which is a big part of how you are continuously challenged harder and harder to manage your nation properly as the game goes on. Still, this was all done because testing showed this dilution in the early game was necessary.

    It also makes it more possible to strategically USE undereducation early on, but it does come with the penalty to your scientific achievement rate to do it. That said, you might be able to grow a lot faster and maybe in the long run get more from it once you've got a larger nation spread out. Now that food is more challenging, this is a very real possibility. And some players apparently feel it's worth focusing on other things than education early on so as to take advantage of the penalty limitations to allow them to turn their backs on that issue while they achieve other things for a while. Not a bad approach - not mine - but not a bad approach.

    The point is always to try to design things so that indeed, there is no perfect way to play. And so that sometimes a negative can be harnessed to a greater positive if navigated properly, like how you CAN use severe crime levels to spawn barb criminals that you can build a large amount of captives to use as slaves with. Not necessarily an OPTIMAL strategy, but has its place if you're skilled enough to keep it from becoming a bigger problem than you can handle.

    Even in the prehistoric, you ignore education at peril unless you are doing it with purpose. You WILL fall behind in research if you ignore it. The differences may not be too strong between positive and negative amounts but consider that the range is from -5% to 0 to +5% on numerous yields AND commerces. That's not a 5% difference, it's a 10% difference between high end and low end. 10% difference in the first era means a very large difference in how quickly you achieve techs and we all know how powerful it can be to get out ahead on techs, but not only that, the difference in production is profound, which is the speed to achieve units (largely for hunting, security, and managing your properties more effectively) and buildings that can mean even more production and research, faster, sooner, unlocking MORE access to MORE production and research faster and sooner. Many small things make for a very big thing ultimately.

    The nice thing about a positive education strategy is that if you are watching your levels and understanding that you can't benefit from OVERdoing it, then you can effectively only control it as much as you need to to get the best benefit and don't waste by pushing harder to get a higher level, fighting decay to do it and costing you tons in unit upkeep. It's easy to make the mistake of spending too many resources on over-dedication to education, but should be fairly easy to ensure it's strong if you care to.
     
    sunrisereader and raxo2222 like this.
  8. Ultimate_Waffle

    Ultimate_Waffle The soul devourer.

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    That's very interesting. This mod obviously gets a lot of thought put into it if you can take a negative and make something positive out of it.
     
  9. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Thank you Thunderbrd for the overview. Appreciated.

    Unfortunately I still feel the Education Property system was devalued by this overall move.

    This explanation though will change my way of using Education Property from now on. I guess game play will reveal the fruit of this change. Bad trees bear Bad fruit, Good trees bear Good fruit.

    Now raxo can laugh some more at this :old:. Have your fun while you may.
     
    raxo2222 likes this.
  10. TaylorItaly

    TaylorItaly Warlord

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    Does these changes to the education system means there is only one way how to play the mod , if you want good resultats ?
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    No... there are a variety of strategies to approach things and a reactive playstyle to various challenges is usually rewarded.
     
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