Hebrew civilization

[Antilogic]

Gah...

The science thing again...although not in an off-topic board. It's spreading like a plague.

The idea behind science is that you assume you know nothing until you can show it through experiment. Experimental evidence doesn't lie--it is a factual phenomena with an explanation, but sometimes man can have a flawed interpretation of the evidence (read: man can have a wrong explanation). I would cite the existence of other flying creatures on earth as evidence that most people thought flight was possible. Even the Greeks have myths about humans flying (remember the wax wings that melted if you got too close to the sun?)...that really predates old Leo there (not that I'm saying da Vinci wasn't a creative mastermind, but the idea of humans flying isn't his originally).

The scientific community at large has a certain interpretation of all the evidence available. As new evidence becomes available, the interpretations are examined and adjusted to account for it. There was one quote from SMAC's University leader that says it all: to paraphrase, there are two kinds of scientific progress: the instantaneous revelation that changes everything, and the slow accumulation of new knowledge and changes. The former is far more rare than the latter, but it gets all the attention.

 

[flyingchicken]

To simplify, the scientific method is:
(1) a phenomenon will be observed
(2) the observer will state a hypothesis with an explanation on the said phenomenon
(3) a controlled experiment with as few variables as possible is prformed to test the hypothesis
(4) a conclusion (the degree of the hypothesis' truth) is formed based on the results of the experimentation

An experiment has to be carefully logged at all times. An unrepeatable experiment is an invalid one. Human error is to be expected even at minimal rate, which is one of the reasons repeatability is important, aside from common sense.

Conclusions are not final -- there can be many other factors that explain a phenomenon.

This should be known and practiced by heart not just by scientists, but by us ordinary folk, too. It's the clearest, most logical way of thinking to be devised yet.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

You mean OTHER than writing the basis of ALL north american lawbooks [talmud and mishna], the largest faith in the world, conquer technologically and numerically superior foes, escape from slavery, as well as contributing greatly to the world's culture?

Oh, and not dying is a HUGE accomplishment when the world UNITES TO KILL YOU



Are you, have you, or do you know anybody studying law at a north american university (not sure about europe)? Because in the universities, they MAKE YOU STUDY JUDAIC TEXTS (talmud israeili, written when they still lived in Israel beore the diaspora) because it is the basis of MODERN LAW.

As well, depending on a Hebrew limited or Hebrew-Jewish-Israeli Civ, Science and art are out of the picture as well. Marc Chagall and his famed windows had a large impact on art.

as for science, Israel is one of the top scientific nations in the world. if you ever used a cellphone, windows XP, a pentium processor, ICQ, AIM, or many other things, it is from Israel.

As for a HEBREW civ, in addition to law, the art and architecture of the temples was imitated in many CATHEDRALS, still seen today.

I apologize that my original post was rather trollerific. I was in a bad mood that day. I will admit that my knowledge of extra-Biblical Hebrew history is somewhat lacking. However it is true that the Hebrew civilization is at least as significant as the Aztecs and I really see no pressing reason to keep them OUT of the game.

I also see no pressing reason to put them in. The majority of the listed accomplishments are either already included in the game in the form of religion(art/architecture), of questionable historic merit (Egyptian slavery), or too Modern to matter (science and such). Just my thoughts, but then I also don't like having America in the game but that's an entirely different argument.

 

[ranLR]

wait, i dont understand... theres posters here who say Israel had little or no effect on the world, yet there are almost 9 pages of posts about it (not counting the dozens of posts in other threads), and this "minor" civ of 7 million also makes every nightly news and the most widely read book ever is almost exclusively about that civ.
I guess you can measure the effect a civ has on the world by how much square miles it controlled or by the time-length of its empire (none of which will give Israel many points), but i personally think a better measurement will be the legacy it leaves/left to the world, and for that, Israel is definetly in the top-5. I mean, Judeo ethics and codes of conduct have been the basis (along with Greek) for the whole western world. I would say thats enough to be included in Civ.
You can hate Israel, love Israel or not give a d***, but for a country the size of new jersey, it made a pretty big dent in history, i say bring it in.

 

[Horizons]

Hey, last time I checked the Hebrew civilization has outlived the Babylonian, Greek, Carthaginian, Roman, among others. Does that qualify as 'empirical evidence' of civilizational longevity or not?

 

[rabidveggie]

It hasn't outlived those civs. It was destroyed and rebuilt so many times that its completely different to what it once was. I was repeatedly conquered and the only reason it exists is a resolution passed by the UN. Israel has had an effect on modern history and I don't think anyone is disputing that, but the current Israel is too young and its history is too fragmented.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Also, you can't really say that Israel of today is the same as of the ancient world, anymore then you can say the Greece of Today is the same as the ancient world, or Italy of today is the same as Rome.

 

[Horizons]

It hasn't outlived those civs. It was destroyed and rebuilt so many times that its completely different to what it once was. I was repeatedly conquered and the only reason it exists is a resolution passed by the UN. Israel has had an effect on modern history and I don't think anyone is disputing that, but the current Israel is too young and its history is too fragmented.

There have been Jews living in the Holy Land constantly since the final exile, keeping the Jewish civilization alive. The Jerusalem Talmud was written there. Medieval rabbis frequently took trips to 'Palestine' or even went there to live. I'm not aware of any other civilization that retains extremely strong links to traditions founded 3000 years ago. In point of fact modern Israel has many of the same kinds of problems that the biblical one did suggesting an extremely long continuation of this one remarkable civilization.

 

[Antilogic]

I simply disagree with using the modern name. I think anything too recent in Civ4 could simply be too controversial, and the people who are being animated for leaderheads should be long dead before being added to the game. But that's just one man's philosophy.

So, Israel for me isn't cutting it. Judea, referring to the name of the locale during ancient and classical times, though, is a good name to go with.

 

[rabidveggie]

Ya and their are Christians and Muslims living there too. Having a few people living in a city they owned long ago does not constitute a city as one religion or the other. The problem with Jerusalem is that three religions see it as their holy city thus causing the violence we see today.

 

[Rusty Edge]

This topic has probably already been discussed, but,
Is the Hebrew civilization taboo for some reason? I don't have any desire to play as them, but if you think about which civlizations founded the various religions in real life, well, Judaism and Christianity both came from the Hebrews.

I'd consider it a history-shaping nomadic culture moreso than a civilization according to my working definitions, but that's what I'd say about the Mongols and the Vikings. I think the world and game benefit from the contributions of all three.

 

[Horizons]

When you research the Guilds technology, the sinister-looking guy has a symbol on his hand which is quite revealing of the subconscious thoughts of some of the Firaxis artists.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

When you research the Guilds technology, the sinister-looking guy has a symbol on his hand which is quite revealing of the subconscious thoughts of some of the Firaxis artists.

I don't understand what you mean. Firaxis has pro-Jewish bias because the guy pictured on the 'Guilds' technology has a Star of David on the palm of his hand?

 

[Horizons]

I don't understand what you mean. Firaxis has pro-Jewish bias because the guy pictured on the 'Guilds' technology has a Star of David on the palm of his hand?

I wouldn't say 'pro'. The references to Jesus being 'our saviour' and the 'son of G-d' in the Civilopedia aren't particularly pro-free religion either.

 

[hossam]

wait, i dont understand... theres posters here who say Israel had little or no effect on the world, yet there are almost 9 pages of posts about it (not counting the dozens of posts in other threads), and this "minor" civ of 7 million also makes every nightly news and the most widely read book ever is almost exclusively about that civ.
I guess you can measure the effect a civ has on the world by how much square miles it controlled or by the time-length of its empire (none of which will give Israel many points), but i personally think a better measurement will be the legacy it leaves/left to the world, and for that, Israel is definetly in the top-5. I mean, Judeo ethics and codes of conduct have been the basis (along with Greek) for the whole western world. I would say thats enough to be included in Civ.
You can hate Israel, love Israel or not give a d***, but for a country the size of new jersey, it made a pretty big dent in history, i say bring it in.

well maybe the reason their always on the news is because their constantly at war with their neighbours or causing problems for the palestinian people
at whats this book your talkin about.

 

[aronnax]

Israel has a pretty big dent in the modern history, not so much ancient or medieval

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Israel has a pretty big dent in the modern history, not so much ancient or medieval

Tell that to all the ancient tribes they wiped out. Israelis have a delightfully bloody history which is one of the reasons i like them so much. They're not afraid to get their hands dirty in order to achieve glory.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Hebrew civilization, although I would really hope it's ancient Hebrew. While I wouldn't mind a few more modern leaders, I personally wouldn't like it as much if it were a modern incarnation. I have nothing against Israeli people, it's more about their government and, of course, politics

 

[aronnax]

Tell that to all the ancient tribes they wiped out. Israelis have a delightfully bloody history which is one of the reasons i like them so much. They're not afraid to get their hands dirty in order to achieve glory.

Dont they exist really far back in time. I mean really far back


The deeper time goes before the fall of the roman empire, the more i hate the certain time period. I have no love for the classical period and murderous rage for the ancient start. Thats why I am never gonna touch the Sumerian Civilization

 

[hossam]

look if the modern israel is going to be put in then they might as well add hitler but maybey they can put an ancient hebrew civilization