Helicopter Gunships in CIV4 are in, Firaxis says, and some more goodies too!

[Symphony D.]

France (read: Chirac, et al) isn't exactly the USA's closest bosom buddy so that really doesn't surprise me.

The point remains, nobody identifies themselves by what continent they're from. Nobody. So it doesn't matter what continent system you use, 5, 6 or 7, because nobody's going to be that vague. Since everybody gives their nationality, and there's really only one country with the actual word "America" in the national title (at least that I'm aware of - if there's another, I'd really like to know), that leaves very little room for ambiguity as to what country that person might be from. And hence, very little ambiguity for a culture group ("civ") unless the other party is somehow used to people introducing themselves by continent first. In which case, I dare say that other party is freakish.

If you're not used to people introducing themselves by continent first, and there is no other country with the word "America" in the title, the only real reason anybody could object to the term... is if they're being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk.

The only other possible, tangential reason I can see is having to name the entire cultural group from the Americas as "American Civs" but the distinction is pretty much implied.

And if, in person, I ever hear anybody say "United Statesian," or an identifiable equivilent in another lanugage, I will remember to take my time, point, and laugh obnoxiously.

 

[mudblood]

Symphony D:

Australians identify themselves by the continent they come from.

Many people around the world consider themselves to have more than one identity, rather like Texans in the United States, and many Europeans, Africans and Central and South Americans coidentify with their nation and the larger geographic region.

While they no longer exist, the Confederate States of America once shared the globe with the United States.

 

[Ramalhão]

Just because you Americans use a seven continents model (Africa, North Am, South Am, Antartica, Australia, Europe, Asia) doesn't mean everyone does. English Canada apparently runs a six-continent model (Eurasia instead of Europe and Asia) ; Europe runs a 6-continent model too (but America instead of North Am and South Am), French Canada runs the 5-continent model (Eurasia and America both), etc.

Here we divide America continent in 3: North, Central and South. North America has only Canada, USA and Mexico, South America is all countries below Colombia and Central America is everything between NA and SA.

That said, it would be a rather pointless issue to change at this point. The languages in which it can easily be changed probably have already changed it (or are in the process of) - Étatsuniens (Unitedstatesians) is increasingly common in french, and those in which it can't easily be changed to a relatively workable name, well, no point having an ugly hard to pronounce name.

We do the same here. There's a commonly used word "norte-americano", but it also refers to people who lives in all North America. There's another word "estados-unidenses", which is exatly the same as Étatsuniens .

 

[searcheagle]

Here we divide America continent in 3: North, Central and South. North America has only Canada, USA and Mexico, South America is all countries below Colombia and Central America is everything between NA and SA.

But do you consider Central America a continent?

Most places include Central America in with North America already.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Every time I have heard the term 'norteamericano', it referred only to US Americans, excluding Mexico, Central America, and the Carribean (all parts of the North American continent) and often Canadians as well.

 

[Ramalhão]

But do you consider Central America a continent?

Most places include Central America in with North America already.

Here America continent is considered divided as I wrote. It's two big triangles, one is North America (which you can "see" a triangle better) and other is South America. Central America is the istmus which connects both triangles and all islands in Caribe.

There's the Eurasia case mentioned above. Why are Europe and Asia diveded if they are only a big continent? It's diveded for some reasons, but I think the main reason is the ease to study two portions of land instead of a huge amount of land. Europe has a huge amount of countries, Asia has even more countries. Joining all these contries in only one big continent may confuse most of people.

And I think Africa is also connected to Eurasia, but everyone puts it alone.

Every time I have heard the term 'norteamericano', it referred only to US Americans, excluding Mexico, Central America, and the Carribean (all parts of the North American continent) and often Canadians as well.

That's what I meant. Norte-americano is mainly used for people from USA, but it also refers to all people from North America, which includes Mexico and Canada. Only a few people use the word "estados-unidenses".

 

[ogmoir]

There's the Eurasia case mentioned above. Why are Europe and Asia diveded if they are only a big continent? It's diveded for some reasons, but I think the main reason is the ease to study two portions of land instead of a huge amount of land. Europe has a huge amount of countries, Asia has even more countries. Joining all these contries in only one big continent may confuse most of people.

Cultural and historical reasons. Before medieval times, there were a few connections between Europe and Far East besides the silk road. The Mongols were the first to connect significant parts of Europe and Asia under a single Europe, but they didn't directly leave great cultural legacy.

Even today the 'European culture' is for many parts different from 'Asian culture'.

 

[dc82]

well the ural mountains heavily divide between europe and asia (as well as the middle east, black sea, etc.) and so, for historical purposes, europe was distinguished from the rest of the asia. as a whole, there's only a few points where one cud have travelled in thru europe, since it was surrouned by sea and ocean to the north west and south

 

[Symphony D.]

Australians identify themselves by the continent they come from.

Always an exception.

While they no longer exist, the Confederate States of America once shared the globe with the United States.

Same "civ", just a splinter group. Yes, I know there were differences, but they were mostly economic, rather than cultural, so the CSA doesn't really count - they were still "American".

 

[NP300]

Of course, this doesn't jive with the fact that almost all Europeans (and everyone else) refer to people of the USA as Americans, and no other nationality calls themselves "American" - they say they're Mexican, Brazilian, Canadian, and so on. The only place where any ambiguity could enter into it at all is with regards to the continent itself, which is stupid. There's no such continent as America - there's North America, and South America, and nobody identifies their place of origin by continent anyway. Can you imagine a Japanese person identifying themselves by saying "I'm Asian"?

Actually people do sometimes identify themselves as "Europeans" or as "Asians" or as "Africans". The term "European" is used especially often. Strictly speaking, America refers to a continent, not to a country.

I don't have a problem with "American" being used as a nationality due to the lack of a good alternative in English and due to tradition. The term "Yankee" is often used as a pejorative and southerners might also object to being called "yankees". I take it as depending on the context whether "American" means someone from the US or someone from the American continent. But to use "America" to refer to a country sounds ridiculous to me. It is as if Germany called itself "Europe". Of course, Germans can call themselves Europeans because they are. BUT Germany is not the same as Europe. Thus, I don't see a problem with Germans calling themslves "Europeans" but I would object to them calling themselves "Europe". It is the same with the terms "America" and "American".

It is true that Mexicans, Brazilians and such do not refer to their specific nationality as "American". However, I can attest from personal experience that in Latin America people do sometimes refer to themselves as "American" in the same sense that a German or a Spaniard may refer to himself as a "European". Also, in Latin America, the term "America" is never used to refer to the USA. The US is called "the United States" by the common people, and is called "North America" or "The United States" in printed literature. I personally object to calling the US "North America" as this is also inaccurate (I think this was a South American invention). The US is never called "America" in Latin America, neither in literature nor by the people in common speech, since "America" is understood to refer to the Western Hemisphere. In addition, the term "American" is used to refer to the nationality, but in literature the term "United States-er" is also used. Now, in Spanish "United States-er" does not sound as ridiculous as it does in English. The word used is "estadounidense". By no means would I advocate using the ridiculous term of "United states-er" or some such in English.

Thus, an Argentine might say that his grandparents came to America in such and such a year to refer to their migration to the Americas, not their migration to the US.

Anyway, for the record, the term "America" was first applied to the Brazilian coast. Later it was used to refer to the entire continent when it was split into North and south America. Thus, the earliest use of the word "America" to refer to a piece of land was in reference to Brazil!

It's really a rather pointless change. I'd say the only group it staying as "America" would offend are people who have some preexisting dislike for the United States. I could be wrong though.

I have no dislike of the United States. I oppose it because it is linguistically inaccurate, leads to confusion and sounds a silly to me. Someone might say that Cuban immigrants to the US "came to America" which sounds ridiculous because Cuba is in America. It is ridiculous to have "America" be used exclusively by the United States when any map in any language shows "North America" and "South America" as referring to the Western hemisphere. If we have North and South America, then logically, America MUST refer to the combination of those two continents. Logically, it cannot possibly refer just to the United States. If America referred to the United States, then South America should refer to the former Confedaracy and North America should refer to the Union states. To use "America" to refer to the US leads to a ridiculous logical contradiction.

If you read older English literature you also often find the use of the terms "American" and "America" in their broader sense. Even till this day such references can occasionally be found in printed literature in English. In Spanish it is far more common.

An example of modern-day English usage of the broader meaning is in the Organization of American States". Their link is here: http://www.oas.org/ This is not an organization of states of the United States! This is an organization for all the countries of North and South America (except Cuba).

So in conclusion I do welcome the change. I modded my game to change "America" to "The United States" although I left the nationality as "American".

 

[NP300]

Symphony D:

Australians identify themselves by the continent they come from.

Yes, and before the civil war, in the US people identified themselves more by their state. Identity was defined more by the state one was from.

 

[DiamanteLouco]

I´m brazilian and I don´t see a problem, but there intelectuals sometimes do.
All in all, United States call himself "America" is not offensive, but is technically wrong.

 

[NP300]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americas

The wikipedia article makes an interesting point:

Moreover, the use of America to refer to the New World as a whole is also found, though less often, in English, such as in the common phrase "Christopher Columbus discovered America".

This phrase is often used in the United States, even though Columbus, to my recollection did not discover the territory of the United States, unless one includes Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands as parts of the US.

 

[player1 fanatic]

yeah caesar seems a bit too old. i guess brutus never got to him.

Well it's still better then yougster from Civ3, that doesn't even look like Caesar.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Man, this thread has gone soooo O/T !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker (an Australian from the Continent-and Country-of Australia !)

 

[bkwrm79]

As far as I know, most Canadians still think in terms of seven continents, on the extremely rare occasions we think about continents. Some people in Europe call themselves Europeans, but that's mostly optimists about the future of the EU. Furthermore, many people call the EU 'Europe,' both in and outside the EU. Thus, countries clearly in the European continent are spoken of as "joining Europe" when they become part of the EU.

Words having more than one possible meaning does not mean either meaning is technically, logically nor in any other way wrong. Nor, at least in English, is honest confusion at all likely in regards to the term 'America.'

How often is there confusion over visiting 'South Africa' (clear presumption is the specific country) or 'the equator' (Ecuador)?

Also, helicopter gunships sound quite cool.

 

[mudblood]

Man, this thread has gone soooo O/T !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker (an Australian from the Continent-and Country-of Australia !)

If you think this is off-topic, you should see the 'Mali' thread.

 

[MarineCorps]

This phrase is often used in the United States, even though Columbus, to my recollection did not discover the territory of the United States, unless one includes Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands as parts of the US.

Well they are US territories.

 

[Thormodr]

Amerigo Vespucci

Vespucci was the one person for whom North and South America was named after. Vespucci had a wonderful life and found many things on his voyages. Amerigo Vespucci was born in Florence, Italy in March of 1451, and grew up in a considerable mansion near the river. As a young boy, Amerigo's happiest moments studying the stars. He excelled in mathematics and his hobby was copying maps. His dream as a young boy was to travel and get a better picture about what the Earth looked like. Amerigo spent half of his life as a business man hoping to strike it rich so he could explore.

In 1503, on this journey, led by Amerigo Vespuccci himself, the captain and crew explored the south eastern side of South America. They ran along the coast and visited such places as Cape Soo Roque, Guanabara Bay, Rio de la Plata, Cape Santo Agostinho, San Julian and spotted the Falkland Islands. His crew returned back to Spain in 1504 and told their story to mapmakers to put on the maps. After the findings of the "New World" a mapmaker suggested they call it America, after the knowing founder. Martin Waldseemuller a German mapmaker was one of the first to believe that Vespucci was the first European to reach the "New World." In 1507, he suggested they call it America and soon this name was used throughout and eventually used officially in the naming of the continent.

Mind you, who really cares about the name. Civ 4 is coming and it looks kick @ss

 

[hr_oskar]

And if, in person, I ever hear anybody say "United Statesian," or an identifiable equivilent in another lanugage, I will remember to take my time, point, and laugh obnoxiously.

Fair enough, I think I'd just laugh back then. There's a number of languages, whether you know it or not, that use terms more specific than just "Americans" to refer to the people of the United States.

It all comes down to language and convention. In English it is conventional and accepted to say "Americans" in the narrow meaning, so I think any PC-ness here would be unjustified. Referring to the country itself as "The United States" is however just as conventional or even more than just saying "America" (which is imprecise and potentially chauvinistic)... I'm sure Firaxis will have "United States" for the noun and "Americans" for the adjective, which seems optimal.

Don't presume that the English nuances apply equally to all other languages. In Spanish people are most likely to say gringos or yanquis (casually), or norteamericanos or estadounidenses (technical, typical for newspapers). In French there's étatsunis as someone mentioned, but probably americains most of the time. Danish for example has Amerikanere for the people and De Forenede Stater for the nation (a literal translation), something similar goes for German, Dutch, Swedish, and Norwegian.

In my particular language, Icelandic, we also have a literal translation of the country name: Bandaríkin; from that we derive bandaríkjamenn (literally "People of the US" or "Unitedstatesians" ). That goes for casual spoken language too, although there exists a super-casual form kanar, derived from "AmeriCANS".

Chinese has Meiguo and Meiguoren - literally "Mei Country" ("Mei" is derived from the ME in America) and "Mei Country People". So they're country-specific too, although they have a completely different system anyway.

So my point is, this problem has been solved in different ways in various languages around the world - let's respect those conventions however different they may be from our own. That also means respecting the English convention of saying "Americans" in the nation-specific meaning