Hell Terrain?

[mikeemike]

While playing as the Infernals, I noticed that all the hell terrain in my territory, as well as any other terrain (such as coast) had no food value, even if they normally would. However when I moused over hell terrain in other civ's territories, it seemed that it was still producing the same number of hammers, commerce, and food as it had been before it was converted into it (such as when you mouse over Illian ice terrain, it shows it is producing 2 food). As far as I can tell, the only real damage caused by it is that it removes trees from the tile it spreads to, which could actually good if it spreads to jungle lands. So what exactly are the negative effects of hell terrain? Im sure I must be missing something.....

 

[hegemonkhan]

it's not hell terran.

it's your civ, the infernals.

if u look at your leader, hyborem, you'll see he has the fallow trait.

it's this fallow trait that causes u to not get food.

this is because the infernal civ uses different mechanics-means-methods to increase their city size. they receive mane units which can be used to increase their city populations.

there's many food resources (health providing resources) that don't/can't exist on hell terran. u lose out on them. they dispear. to make up for less food and less health, with having the ashen veil religion as your state religion u can use the sacrifice the weak civic (with apropriate tech).

however as the infernals, hell terrran doesn't effect u in a bad way at all, as far as i know. it does effect every otehr civ in a bad way though.

 

[esvath]

Yes, it's your civ specific trait (Fallow) that gives zero .

On the other hand, I think that Hell Terrain should give some penalty other than changing grains into snake pillar and cattles into toad. -1 for all civs would be nice and add more emergency to get rid of Hell Terrain.

On the contrary, I think that AV civs should have a building that nullify the penalty (so give them +1 back). Sheaim also has UB to give them +1 or +1 in Hell Terrain plot.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Hell terrain destroys trees and flooded plains. It also transforms normal resources((rise, wheat, horses, pigs etc) to specific hell-type resources with different bonuses(Pillar of snakes, nightmares, frogs etc).
In addition, it does turn desert into burning lava, so that no unit without fire resistance can enter them.

Further more, most demons have benefits when fighting in hell terrain. If I missed something, please someone fill in the gaps .

 

[mikeemike]

Yeah I know that Hyborem has the fallow trait causing him to have no food. But its other civs that I'm confused about. All other civs get no negative tile effects from hell terrain as far as I can tell other than the conversion of horses and cows to nightmares, grain to snake pillars and so forth. In fact it seems to me that these add new resources, increasing trading potential and thus happiness and healthiness in cities! I agree with Esvath, it should give some food penalty, and AV or maybe just evil civs should be able to nullify it with a UB or somthing. It seems to me at the moment that it has little effect other than changing the look of the game.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Consider the destruction of trees and flooded plains as negative effects. When flooded plains on a desert is destroyed the resulting terrain is burning lava, which wields 0/0/0 instead of the 3/0/1 of the flooded plain.
The destruction of the forest deprives the civ from the +1 and from any lumbermills that happen to be build there, and prevent him from building any other lumbermills.

Specifically conserning elves, the destruction of the forests is a disaster, indeed.

 

[mahazel]

Bannor lived in Hell for long time, so even there is enough food for anyone

 

[Senethro]

Hell terrain destroys a lot of Health resources and forests making it difficult to sustain large populations. This is why Sacrifice the Weak lets your tolerate Hell terrain to an extent.

 

[WarKirby]

It's pretty strange that broken lands still produces 2 though.

You'd think an ashen wasteland wouldn't be very good for growing crops...

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Agreed. And I think that farms shouldn't be buildable in hell terrain...

 

[Emptiness]

Generally speaking, the change to Hell Terrain can be devastating. Even if you are expecting it, and plan accordingly, it can hurt your civ. If you don't have access to Sacrifice the Weak then food supply can become a problem thanks to disappearing food sources and loss of flood plains. Naturally, the specific impact on an empire will vary based on the areas around its cities.

If there were to be a -1 penalty in each tile and farms were unbuildable then most civs would just collapse once the change took place. To take an extreme example, a nice size 21 elven city surrounded by town-class improvements on Ancient Forest/Plains would proceed to collapse to a size 1 city incapable of growth. I'm not sure how anyone imagines a player would compete after his or her empire is hit with that level of devastation.

 

[WarKirby]

Generally speaking, the change to Hell Terrain can be devastating. Even if you are expecting it, and plan accordingly, it can hurt your civ. If you don't have access to Sacrifice the Weak then food supply can become a problem thanks to disappearing food sources and loss of flood plains. Naturally, the specific impact on an empire will vary based on the areas around its cities.

If there were to be a -1 penalty in each tile and farms were unbuildable then most civs would just collapse once the change took place. To take an extreme example, a nice size 21 elven city surrounded by town-class improvements on Ancient Forest/Plains would proceed to collapse to a size 1 city incapable of growth. I'm not sure how anyone imagines a player would compete after his or her empire is hit with that level of devastation.

I do agree, but that doesn't mean the concept is overpowered.

Tile yields can be floats, at least in FF. -0.25 from hell terrain tiles wouldn't be utterly devastating, but it would be bad enough to make it more undeaireable.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Generally speaking, the change to Hell Terrain can be devastating. Even if you are expecting it, and plan accordingly, it can hurt your civ. If you don't have access to Sacrifice the Weak then food supply can become a problem thanks to disappearing food sources and loss of flood plains. Naturally, the specific impact on an empire will vary based on the areas around its cities.

If there were to be a -1 penalty in each tile and farms were unbuildable then most civs would just collapse once the change took place. To take an extreme example, a nice size 21 elven city surrounded by town-class improvements on Ancient Forest/Plains would proceed to collapse to a size 1 city incapable of growth. I'm not sure how anyone imagines a player would compete after his or her empire is hit with that level of devastation.

Just one more reason to use the Sanctify spell. This would make sure you keep an eye on hell terrain, also.
In addition, if you do not want hell terrain, and you are a Neutral civ, just adopt order. This would make order a more valuable religion, and the choise between RoK/FoL for economy and Order for survival would have been tougher.

 

[Honor]

I agree. The spawning of Hyborem does not at all feel so epic or devastating as it is now. He just sits in Dis and his terrain spreads, doing virtually no damage to anyone. When the infernal pact is researched the world should feel it.

That said, the Mercurians need more drama as well.

Maybe the player could be notified of any battle that takes place between these two civilizations? This would add to the feeling that something really is going on between the FfH counterparts of heaven and hell. Their AI could also be programmed that they target each other first as soon as both of them are in the game. With stacks of doom of course, and not a lonely Basium running off to get his nether places kicked.

 

[Rystic]

On the contrary, I think that AV civs should have a building that nullify the penalty (so give them +1 back). Sheaim also has UB to give them +1 or +1 in Hell Terrain plot.

What UB are you referring to?

 

[xalien]

Hell terrain doesn't allow to spread irrigation so you'll only be able to have farms next to fresh water. Health bonus resources are also converted to various hell counterparts and only on of them - toads - maintains health bonus. So you're bound to lose up to 10 health points. Changing your alignment to good would stop it's spread but then you'll have to abandon undercouncil which can be quite painful.

UB - unique building.

 

[kenken244]

What UB are you referring to?

The one that does not exist yet, but that he thinks should exist.

 

[zup]

Hell terrain is fine as is, except I'd like it to spread to good lands at AC 100. I also wish AC was locked at 100 after armageddon.