Help for a Civ3 Vet... I suck at Civ4

[Dunedein]

Okay, so I was able to beat Civ3 on emporor several times, and I got pretty darn good at it. But when I picked up my copy of Civ4, I learned that I... suck at it.

What am I doing wrong? Now, don't get me wrong, I know to build like a winery on wines and farms on wheat, but I just don't know how to be good.

I have beaten the game on noble, and am now trying to beat prince, where I am having tons of trouble.

What should I research? When should I go for a religion? What wonders should I build? What are the Code of Law and Civil Service slingshots and how do they work? What are ways to stay ahead in technology? How much military should I have?

Man, Civ4 is so much different than Civ3...

 

[ticktockclok]

What should I research?- Generally, Bronze Working is considered to be the best choice to go for. You can beeline to it if you don't start with Mining. The next in importance is probably Pottery. If you've got a floodplain start, it might be wise to go with Pottery first. Likewise, if you've got a bunch of forests on plains, or a high food start to whip with Slavery, Bronze Working is probably your best bet. Later on, go for Alphabet right away, to pick up on worker techs you missed in trades.

What are you doing wrong?- Load up one of your Noble saves on to here, for us to tell you what to improve on.

When should I go for a religion?- Don't go at all really. I never do, unless I'm trying for a culture victory. Just let it spread to your civ through trade, and use missionaries to get it around.

What wonders to build?- Wonders are really unneccesary. On Prince, you can get away with building a few, but later on, you really cant. Some great ones are the Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, and the Kremlin (though it was nerfed in the latest Patch).

What are the Code of Law and Civil Service slingshots and how do they work?-The CoL/CS slingshots try to use the free technology granted from building the Oracle to get the most expensive/useful tech possible. Going for CoL is no problem, but going for CS is very risky, and shouldn't be attempted after Noble.

What are ways to stay ahead in technology?- Abstain with the farms, and try to spam cottages everywhere. Make at least 2/3 of your cities as Science cities, whose goal are to make as much commerce as possible.

How much military should I have?- I usually have one or two cities around 1 AD churning out military units constantly, since I'm the warfaring type. You should try to have more in your border cities, because thats where the AI will strike first if they attack you. Also, try to get as much culture as possible into your border cities to stave off the AI's culture.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

No city in Civilization 4 can be good at everything. Some cities will be good at production, but totally suck at commerce generation. Due to the national wonders, and the somewhat pricey improvement structures, it is most efficient to create cities that specialize in one particular area rather than having each city do a mediocre job at everything.

In Civilization 4, commerce is king, and cottages are the path to commerce. Plan early on which cities you want to be your commerce centers, and cover all of their terrain with with cottages (with some allowance for food supply).

Most of the decisions you make should revolve around "how much commerce will this get me?". Wars are fought for the territory gains, which allow for more cottages. Resources let you have larger cities in order to work more cottages. Wonders should be built to enhance the amount of commerce you get.

One of the biggest changes in terms of commerce generation from Civ3 to Civ4 is the involvement of roads, or lack thereof. In Civ3 commerce could be generated equally on all tiles without cost; just build a road there and you get an extra commerce every turn. In Civ4, you cannot do this. You must choose to dedicate a tile to commerce at the expense of other forms of productivity. Commerce production is a specialized affair, not a general and distributed one. You can't make commerce by just having a developed city, you need a city that was developed for commerce.

 

[Dunedein]

Ok, I think I am understanding the importantce of cottages now... specializing cities really throws me off balance though because I never ever did it in Civ3.

I don't have and noble saves, but here is the game I started today. It's on prince. I built the oracle and got CoL, then researched CS (took about 40 turns) which gave me the macemen who allowed me to attack the Egyptians. I only had 3 good cities, but I fought a war against the Egyptians to gain two extra cities (and a little breathing room). I founded confucianism w/ CoL and built the Kong Mai which is giving me tons of moneys.

Please point out anything that looks wrong.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Well...one thing you definately did wrong in that savegame file was SIT ON YOUR ASS for 60+ turns.

Where's the exploration? Where's the conquest? You haven't even scounted out Scandinavia! You don't have a jimmy's idea what the African coast looks like! It's 1580, c'mon!

You are certainly not an aggressive enough player.

 

[pigswill]

I assume you've been checking out various strategy articles for cIV. If you haven't looked at ALC series then that's worth doing:it applies strategies and tactics to particular games so you can see their application.
Most striking general comment is city spacing; you've come across the 'fat cross' idea, that means cities should be spaced 5 tiles apart. Hans is certainly right about exploring and expanding. In terms of carrying on this game I'd say catapults are your friend;take out spain asap (expand or die); build caravels and explore overseas and coasts (handy tip, caravels ignore open/closed borders, as long as there's water they're happy).
Edit:Main difference between 3 and 4 is REX is a tyranosarus (powerful but extinct). Two implications are:
1)Phased expansion. Build/Conquer cities until research rate falls to a specific value (some say 60%,others 20%,whichever you prefer) then stop expanding, recover your economy (cottages,trade routes, resources etc) until your research climbs up again to a specifiv value (90%,50%,whatever) thenstart expanding again.
2)Specialisation. With fewer cities they need to be streamlined to either production (basically units) or commerce (research,gold). More hills than grass=production, more grass than hills=commerce (oversimplification obviously).

 

[Murky]

I've been a long time lurker in these forums trying to get a handle on Prince Difficulty myself. The things that have helped me the most are reading the various strategy guides and game of the month spoilers.

I think you need to be more aggressive early on and continue that until you get the 60% research mark. Once you get it back up to 80-90% then become aggressive again.

It is usually better to raze a few of the less desirable cities than to try to keep and improve all the ones you conquer. I usually keep only capitals and/or holy cities and raze the ones that are the farthest away.

Don't build too many farms. You mainly want money for science and hammers for production. Where there are hills build mines. Where there is grasslands/plains build mostly cottages.

Learn and exploit the AI's weaknesses. They are terrible at guarding their workers during peacetime and they build too many farms. At Prince, it isn't hard to get ahead in workers and science. Use that to your advantage.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

And it seems that the higher the level you play, the more important it is to eliminate a nearby neighbor. The AI get free units (settlers, etc) that let them start the game with multiple cities. Considering how long it takes for you to build your extra cities, it becomes more important to take out a neighbor or two early and assimilate their best cities into your empire.

Bronze working isn't only for the copper (Axemen, etc.), but for the slavery and forest chop, those amazing early production multipliers that you need to compete with the bonuses the AI gets. With early conquering, you can quadruple the size of your city by building only military units and a worker or two before the nearest enemy has had a chance to fully leverage its difficulty-level based advantages.

In short,
1. More early military=more early cities captured and more fog busting
2. More cities=more military support;more squares opened up from fog; more cottage spots; more commerce; faster tech; more money... UP TO A POINT. Which brings me to...
2a. More city support cost=less money available to research... find the optimum number of cities for your tech and commerce support and only grow as far as your position will allow. You now actually have to develop your existing cities to support the added costs of adding new ones. The victory condition you are targeting will guide you toward how fast you want to grow, as well.
2b. Keep conquered cities that will help, destroy the ones that don't. Many people only keep conquered capitals and holy cities as they have a much higher chance of helping you instead of hurt you (extra commerce potential).
3. In war, cripple the enemy early. Make destroying any iron, copper, horse, ivory improvements one of your highest priorities. They won't be able to properly recover from any military losses if they don't have the resources to rebuild their best units.
4. Capturing OR destroying cities gives you money. Pillaging most improvements during war gives you money. Don't be afraid to pillage the enemy with faster units if you are waiting for the invasion stack to get to the city gates, especially if you don't intend to keep the city.
5. Diplomacy can help you get your way, if you are diligent enough. Alliances and bribes can get the AI attacking each other (weakening them both for your benefit).

My $0.02,
S. Rutters

 

[The Lardossen]

I think you need to be more aggressive early on and continue that until you get the 60% research mark. Once you get it back up to 80-90% then become aggressive again.

Don't do that, 60% is nothing. 60% of what?

The only thing that will make me stop warring is almost going through the red. You need to keep nearby cities in good spots, and burn the rest to the ground. This pillaging and selective city keeping will keep you researching for 100% for quite a long time.

 

[Murky]

Don't do that, 60% is nothing. 60% of what?

The only thing that will make me stop warring is almost going through the red. You need to keep nearby cities in good spots, and burn the rest to the ground. This pillaging and selective city keeping will keep you researching for 100% for quite a long time.

I was referring to the 60% research rule that a lot of people go by. Keeping fewer cities will help you stay closer 100% if that is your thing.

 

[The Lardossen]

I was referring to the 60% research rule that a lot of people go by. Keeping fewer cities will help you stay closer 100% if that is your thing.

It's not about keeping 100%, but switching between 0% and 100%. There are articles about this to be found here. It has to do with rounding, which is always down, but that's offtopic.

What I'm trying to say, the percentage itself doesn't say anything about how well you do in research nor can it be a reason to stop (or continue) your early wars. As long as you don't end up in a strike you can't get out of, all is well. Signing for peace and optimizing your cities for gold and whipping a few courthouses and marketplaces will get you out of that pretty fast.

Any damage you do and any excellent cities you'll capture early have a very, very big impact for the rest of the game and you shouldn't stop your campaign just because some arbitrary 'hey my research is at 60% and I'm still losing money' rule while 60% in itself doesn't mean anything.

 

[Murky]

It's not about keeping 100%, but switching between 0% and 100%. There are articles about this to be found here. It has to do with rounding, which is always down, but that's offtopic.

What I'm trying to say, the percentage itself doesn't say anything about how well you do in research nor can it be a reason to stop (or continue) your early wars. As long as you don't end up in a strike you can't get out of, all is well. Signing for peace and optimizing your cities for gold and whipping a few courthouses and marketplaces will get you out of that pretty fast.

Any damage you do and any excellent cities you'll capture early have a very, very big impact for the rest of the game and you shouldn't stop your campaign just because some arbitrary 'hey my research is at 60% and I'm still losing money' rule while 60% in itself doesn't mean anything.

Good points.

I read that article on micromanaging research between 0 and 100%. I could never get it work for me. It is easier for me to keep the research % up as high as possible througout my game.

 

[ticktockclok]

Umm... yeah, don't take that 60% advice. I usually keep warring till I'm on the verge of going on strike. You should switch between 0% and 100% at all times so that you don't lose beakers.