Help me out with this game

[erikthecelt]

He is on turn 1. Its a little early to pick a VC unless he is intent on culture.

Not if you a: are playing a HOF game, b: trying for a GOTM medal or award, c: trying to learn something.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

c: trying to learn something.

I think the #1 one line tip from that old thread was "Play the Map" which includes VC. So if you start planning on one type of victory this early, and then discover that you chose wrong, you've wasted some of your efforts. I say explore the map first, then decide on a VC.

 

[JBossch]

Not if you a: are playing a HOF game,

He's not

b: trying for a GOTM medal or award,

He's not

c: trying to learn something.

Learn what? The best thing any player can learn, imo, even beyond "play the map," is to be flexible. Base your strategy on the circumstances you find yourself in. The map will be the single biggest factor here if taken to include neighbors and local resources but it also includes traits, UUs, UBs, and even whether a tech is popped from a hut. If the OP wants to Quecha rush at all costs, so be it, but its not necessarily the optimal strategy. One has to play past turn 1 to determine as much.
Earlier you mentioned moving the initial settler nearest the closest neighbor. This can be a great strategy on HOF and especially with rigged settings like packing in extra AIs. Its a niche strategy, however, and not a way to "learn" how to be better at Civ in general.

 

[Dr Yes]

Yes, clearly I'm not in a HOF or GOTM. I'm at Monarch now hoping to learn enough to go to Emperor soon. I've had my Emperor wins, but those were with prespecified conditions, like chosen opponents, chosen leaders, and a specifically chosen victory condition (mostly cultural).
I know that at the higher levels, all parts of the game should be mastered. That includes city placement, city specialization, espionage, chopping and whipping strategies, diplomacy, warfare.
Warfare is my weakest part of the game, so hopefully we will find more than just barbarians on this continent.
The major attraction at the higher levels for me is the flexibility. How well can you adapt to the map and to any unfortunate roll of the dice. So far I can't complain with the capital (so where is the catch?). At the end of the day I want to be a more complete player, also being able to win comfortably at Monarch or even Emperor with leaders that have weaker traits, UUs and UBs.
So my first objective is to see if I can pull off a rush. Once we know more about the lay of the land, we can discuss victory conditions.

 

[DaveMcW]

Quechua Rush:

Double-click the city.
Click the forest plains hill.
Click the Quechua button 5 times.
Find the enemy capital.
Group a stack of 6 Quechuas on the border.
Declare war and capture the capital.

 

[erikthecelt]

He's not
QUOTE]

I didn't say he was, just gave 3 reasons for why someone might. Being a HOF/xOTM player, I start with a VC until proven otherwise. It usually depends on the leader and what I am trying to accomplish. Although, the victory condition is often a very relevant factor when deciding where to settle and what first tech to research.

 

[Bei1052]

I would have settled 1N, and gone fishing --> Mining ---> BW

Worker ---> Work boat ---> Work boat

Of course, I dislike rushes so, *shrugs*, you can ignore me.

 

[Dr Yes]

I decided to go worker first, and Fishing first. Reason for this is that after 9 turns the sea tiles become available when Fishing is in, and after 11 turns I have one extra Quecha and a city at population 2.

After that, I teched as planned: mining, BW, Wheel, Polytheism, Priesthood, Writing.

And built as planned: worker, quechas. Somewhere to the end I built a workboat.

I rushed with 6 quechas on Gandhi who quickly whipped two archers. I lost all quechas (Delhi had 40% defense from culture), so I backed up 4 turns and waited for two more Quechas. It probably has to do with the distance between Cuzco and Delhi: it takes 10 turns to get there.

Spoiler :

While exploring there was some good news (3 huts that provided a total of 176 gold) and bad news (one hut popped barbarians who killed my quechua, one quecha ran into a bear).

So here we stand: I captured Delhi (Hindu shrine) and Bombay (Jewish shrine). I got the Oracle the turn after I researched Writing and got Code Of Laws.

Spoiler :

So I got my first rush, I'm still at war with Gandhi (he's got one more city to the E). In the mean time, Saladin has got 2 cities W of the former Indian cities.

Where do we go from here? I have dotmapped the map. I would guess backfilling my empire first, before taking out Saladin.

Spoiler :

I will post some screen shots later for the lurkers, but have attached the save for the curious.

 

[DaveMcW]

after 11 turns I have one extra Quecha and a city at population 2.

You forgot to click on the plains hill.:suicide:

 

[Dr Yes]

You forgot to click on the plains hill.:suicide:

Darn, I see what you mean: with the plains hill, there is no growth, but the Quechua is ready in 6 turns...

 

[Dr Yes]

Will start from scratch again tomorrow...

Just having a second thought: is it worth it going after an enemy who is 10 tiles away?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Just having a second thought: is it worth it going after an enemy who is 10 tiles away?

Compared to what? The key is to recognize that you should be thinking about opportunity costs, rather than raw cost.


Some things that you might experiment with, if you don't mind replaying the start several times. What happens if you...

1) first tech Fishing, and build Quecha -> Workboat out of the box.
2) first train a worker, and tech Fishing before Bronze Working - when do you first use the fishing tech?
3) first train a worker, and tech Bronze Working before Fishing - when do you first use the bronze working tech?

There are two things I would watch for here: one is "which position feels better" - literally which one do you think is more fun. The second is which one is more effective for your Quecha rush (assuming that early rushing is part of your experiment in this game).

 

[Dr Yes]

Before I explore the suggestions of VoiceOfUnreason, I first do the super-rush as suggested by DaveMcW.

Work the plains hill to get the first Quechua in 6 turns. Later Quechua's will be ready in 5 or even 4 turns due to overflow. The city will not grow in the mean time.
The plains hill also has one gold, so total commerce is 10 (8 from the capital and 2 from the worked tiles).
Research path didn't matter too much, because we do not plan to build a worker until Delhi is captured. So I went Mining > Bronze Working > Fishing > Polytheism.

Cuzco:

Spoiler :

One hut gives me The Wheel, one appears to have nasty barbs:

Spoiler :

I accumulate 6 Quechuas at Gandhi's border and declare in turn 41. It takes two turns to get through his land. As soon as I'm at the gates of Delhi, Gandhi whips a third archer. The RNG is not benevolent and I lose all my Quechuas.

So: rinse and repeat. Back up a couple of moves and attack with 8 Quechuas. I declare at turns 50, and lose 7 out of 8 quechuas.

One more rinse and repeat. Back up again and wait for the ninth Quechua. This is really the last chance, because I started working the corn tile to grow Cuzco, so the stream of quechuas is drying out.
The RNG realizes that I'm not easy game (I'm a statistician by profession so I know one day my time will come). I lose only 3 quechuas, 6 survive against 3 archers.

Spoiler :

Despite the sheer luck of the RNG this time, it is fair to say that 6 quechuas is at the low end when attacking a 40% culture opponent. 8 may have been unlucky, 9 feels like a safe number.

Interms of progress this strategy is slightly slower than what I did before. Evidently, when the city is not growing and not working the clams tiles, research is going a bit slower. At turn 56, I'm 17 turns away from Polytheism, so I will get that 9 turns later than before. Also, Cuzco is very undeveloped now.

 

[erikthecelt]

It's always easier to rush from a closer distance, but the rule of thumb for quecha's for vanilla/warlords. 2:1 for flat cities, 3:1 for hill cities 4:1 for protective, BTS has upped the anti with the AI whipping defenders, it's always nice to find an AI that hasn't teched BW yet.

Good luck with the learning exercise.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's always easier to rush from a closer distance, but the rule of thumb for quecha's for vanilla/warlords. 2:1 for flat cities, 3:1 for hill cities 4:1 for protective, BTS has upped the anti with the AI whipping defenders, it's always nice to find an AI that hasn't teched BW yet.

Good luck with the learning exercise.

Marathon makes it a lot easier. You don't see much HoF domination out of the quecha on normal/quick other than on the smallest maps.

If you're willing to chance moving the starting settler (no harm in HoF) you can settle right next to an AI capitol, re-rolling until your spot you ultimately settle is even decent.

As for HoF and picking victory conditions, note that most HoF players (myself included when I do it) will hand-pick leaders, turn off barbarians, and set the map up such that they can achieve a selected victory condition easily. Actually, it makes WINNING THE GAME quite easy. The hard part is actually beating other people's times.

A normal, random map makes that implausible ---> you don't know your opponents, about where they are, etc. You're not going to just re-roll if it looks bad, and so on. The intention and approach do vary quite a bit.

Cooking settings to win ASAP is learning a different kind of game. It's fun and you learn a thing or two about optimal settings given a VC, but the adaptation to random maps is a separate skill IMO...though there *is* some overlap it does not include picking your victory from the start, unless you're pushing culture or going for the AP.

 

[Dr Yes]

It's always easier to rush from a closer distance, but the rule of thumb for quecha's for vanilla/warlords. 2:1 for flat cities, 3:1 for hill cities 4:1 for protective, BTS has upped the anti with the AI whipping defenders, it's always nice to find an AI that hasn't teched BW yet.

Yes, and what I learned from this is that if you attack a leader who has founded a religion, the cultural defense requires an extra couple of units.

Good luck with the learning exercise.

Thanks, and thank you for your input.

 

[futurehermit]

I'm pretty sure Dave meant the forested plains hill, no?

 

[Dr Yes]

I'm pretty sure Dave meant the forested plains hill, no?

Being an obedient pupil I of course went for the unforested plains hill

 

[Dr Yes]

Compared to what? The key is to recognize that you should be thinking about opportunity costs, rather than raw cost.


Some things that you might experiment with, if you don't mind replaying the start several times. What happens if you...

1) first tech Fishing, and build Quecha -> Workboat out of the box.
2) first train a worker, and tech Fishing before Bronze Working - when do you first use the fishing tech?
3) first train a worker, and tech Bronze Working before Fishing - when do you first use the bronze working tech?

There are two things I would watch for here: one is "which position feels better" - literally which one do you think is more fun. The second is which one is more effective for your Quecha rush (assuming that early rushing is part of your experiment in this game).

It was difficult to compare these scenarios. First of all, to keep things comparable I didn't move any Quechas, because in one of the tries I popped a tech. In two tries, I got a random event that set me back in research. In one of the tries, a forest grew on a plains hill so that I could no longer work it. Maybe I should have left a Quechua there.

Scenario I (Fishing > Mining > BW with Quechua > WB first) is suboptimal. I reached BW in turn 40, but Cuzco was left relatively underdeveloped at size 3 (7 turns to size 3).

In Scenario II I investigated both Mining > Fishing > BW and Fishing > Mining > BW with a worker first. IIa took slightly longer (due to the random event that set me back -23 beakers) but got Cuzco at size 4 when BW was researched.

Scenario III got me to the finish in 47 turns (but with a -23 beakers setback in research due to the random event). Cuzco was then 4 turns from growing to size 4, and of course the clams weren't developed.

That is not the full story. At every single point in time, and especially after growth or completing a build, choices need to be made about which tiles to work. The City Governors choice may not always be optimal (define optimal...). With Fishing in and BW being researched, I usually worked the tiles that would build the WB the fastest. Also, with the worker built, I first farmed the corn and then the plains hill.

So for this particular start (I feel not confident to generalize):
1. build worker first.
2. Choose the techs that keep the worker busy, so first Mining and then Fishing.
3. Work the tiles that complete the WB the fastest.

 

[JBossch]

Being an obedient pupil I of course went for the unforested plains hill

Dude, are you serious? If you intended to rush as fast as possible why would you pass up the opportunity to work an extra hammer? That is 25% more hammers! You didn't learn anything from this scenarios except how to play while working suboptimal tiles.