Help me secure saltpeter- before it's too late!

[Cerenkov]

I've been playing a C3C Monarch game as the Hittites (explansionist, commercial) with a self-imposed restriction that I cannot build slow military units (other than artillery) or use them offensively. This has effectively limited me to using only the 3-Man Chariot in the Ancient Age and Knights and Cavalry in the Medieval Age. The restriction does not apply to units popped from huts or generated by wonders- though I am not permitted to attack with these units, only defend or use as MP. The world is:

5 Billion Years Old (few mountains)
Arid
Hot
Continents (70% Water)
Sedentary Barbs

I started on a continent with the Vikings on a peninsula to the northwest, the Americans far to the south, and the Spanish to the southwest. I researched the Wheel and popped several techs with which I was able to set myself up as a tech broker. I secured horses ASAP in order to start building my UU, the 30-shield, 2/2/2 3-Man Chariot. For this ruleset it was perfect- a fast attacker that could capture and hold territory better than a Horseman and is available earlier.

I was able to secure three luxuries in the early ancient age, reducing the need for MP; I built up a stack of 3MCs and went on the offensive against the Vikings, eventually destroying them after two ancient and one early medieval war. I currently control the entire northern half of the continent except for a small Spanish enclave, and own the Colossus and Great Lighthouse (thanks, Ragnar!) as well as Sun Tzus and The Crusades. My military looks like this:

I am "average" against the Spanish and "weak" against the Americans, although according to the histograph I am slightly more powerful. They are both polite with RoPs and I have never fought either, but they have nothing to trade; I have access to all four luxuries and they have no cash. America is in Republic; Spain in Monarchy. I am "weak" against the Mongols and "average" against the Germans, but those two are on another continent and can't reach me without Astronomy. I am the tech leader by far on my own continent; I have all first-tier medieval techs + theology and Chivalry and am 8 turns away from Military Tradition; America doesn't even have Engineering yet.

So what's the problem?

Look in the south, next to Atlanta. That's the ONLY source of Saltpeter on the entire continent. I can't possibly trade for it with the Mongols or Germans; neither have Gunpowder yet and in any case they either don't have harbors or aren't in range. If I want Cavalry, I am going to need to somehow push at least 11 tiles south into America, seizing and holding at least three cities on the way and then roading the saltpeter when I get there. All while retaining knight garrisons in strategic locations up north to stop him from landing troops in my unguarded cities. Oh, and I don't have any MGLs and NONE of my knights promoted to Elite during the last war with Ragnar.

Lincoln seems to have 3-4 pikes garrisoned in his cities and random Medieval Infantry and Longbows skulking around everywhere. He doesn't have Chivalry yet, but he has the prerequisites and I'm sure he'll have knights in a few turns. I could probably take Miami two turns into a war; it's only one square across the border, which means my treb stack (defended by Crusaders) could be bombarding it the next turn after DoW and my knights could then swoop in and take it. After that, though, I'm stuck- his cities are spaced so far apart that my knights would immediately get counterattacked by strong units while approaching the next city in line. I can't hope to take out his horses; he has at least two sources. Going for his iron would also be suicidal; it's four spaces south of the border and half of that is through jungle.

So how on earth do I pull this one off? Any suggestions?

 

[Tone]

Well although I haven't seen the save I would attack with all my knights asap. Those that are guarding against a possible attack should head south for the first phase-new knight builds can track any galleys that appear. They are not going to pop up out of nowhere-are they? I'd also switch the court builds to military and also the one building wealth. If you have a tech lead you can afford to take a few turns on a lower research setting if your cashflow requires it. Once you capture a few American towns your unit support will increase-maybe building a few more towns might have been a good idea anyway; yours are spaced out very loosely.

If you are worried about their strength, rope in Spain as an ally so that they occupy some of the American forces. The only thing against this is that you will not be able to sue for peace when you want to.

28 knights is not a bad force to have on Monarch and if you concentrate your forces I think that you can get to New York in a few turns. You say that you are weak vs the Americans, you advisor says 'average' in the screenshot but your advantage is that you will concentrate your forces for decisive attacks whilst the AI will commit piecemeal.

You've got to get that source of salt this before they get muskets but I think that you can take their iron so why hold back? Also it looks like you cannot trade for salt with the other continent until you get Navigation/Magnetism. You have too many troops sitting around to do nothing and you have a tech lead. If you don't attack them now, maybe the American might come knocking at your door later on and if they have knights and muskets when they do, you might regret not taking them out when you had the chance.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Good advice, do not delay! My tuppence:

First, with no "slow units" and 16(?) towns, your free or real strength is twelve knights (16 used as garrisons), two crusaders (four as garrisons in the border towns) and one MDI supported by five to nine trebs. That is nowhere near enough to reach Atlanta the Ankuwa - Miami - Philadelphia route, so in that respect it is already "too late".

But it looks as if Atlanta is not far from the coast? If you switch all production so that inland towns build knights and a couple (or more) of coastal build galleys, you may have a shot at it:

Four galleys would hold four crusaders and four knights, enough to take and hold Atlanta, at least for half a dozen turns. [You probably won't be able to upgrade or build cavs as you have no road or trade route from captured Atlanta that doesn't go through enemy territory unless there is one from Atlanta to Spanish Toledo.]

The AI response will be to send the bulk of his military to retake Atlanta and its strategic resource. Now your knights come crashing over the border taking first Miami and then Houston. With three cities in your hands, Abe will probably accept a peace treaty very much in your favour. Now upgrade and build as many cavs as you can and finish the Yanks off.

I wouldn't rope in Spain as its more than likely they too would go for Atlanta and its strategic resource. A Spanish Atlanta is not in my interest.

 

[Cerenkov]

Good thinking, Pyrrhos, but I've already acted on Tone's advice. My position was actually made a lot more tenable by not employing garrisons. Since I'm in republic, I didn't need them for MP duties. By roping in Spain as an ally I was able to suppress American landings- Spain has a weak military but galleys out its ears. I signed the MA knowing that Spain's military was far too pathetic to take Atlanta under any circumstances; in any case, Spain doesn't have gunpowder yet and thus have no incentive to push for Atlanta.

America ended up sending a bunch of pikemen and MDIs into the jungles along its border with Spain to die horrible deaths by attrition, while I sent 20-odd Knights, six Crusaders and 15 trebs to take Miami, Philadelphia and finally Atlanta (also New York for good measure) while America flailed. I was able to cut off American horses near my border, and a galley that I had sent around the world with a Crusader/Settler pair made landfall at their other source. Consequently, America's only fast response was with a few obsolete horsemen that made pathetic stabs at Miami.

Controlling Sun Tzu's really made a big difference here, since it meant that I could move injured knights into captured cities and quickly resume new attacks on a 3-4 turn cycle:
Turn 1- bombard and seize city with knights
Turn 2/3, advance trebs and their defenders to next enemy city.
Turn 3/4, bombard again and bring up now-healed knights to take city.

I now control the central region of America's former holdings, and am in a good position to march on Washington. Using a huge stack of trebs meant that I've only taken three knight casualties while attacking cities; I've actually lost more from stupidly chasing down stray MDIs and Pikemen and then getting ambushed.

Here's the state of the world:

Looks like I'm well positioned to take out America's Iron next turn and from there sack their core. I intend to either push them into the sea or render them impotent; it may be useful to leave them alive but crippled so that the strong AIs on other continents will try to extort tribute from them first before coming after me.

Oh, and one other good thing- I got a MGL! He's sitting as an empty army in my capital now, waiting to be filled with bloodthirsty cavalry.

Over on the other continent, it looks like the Sumerians have completed destroyed the Aztecs and are now the #1 world power! I don't think that I've ever seen them this strong before- the Aztecs must have exhausted all their offensive forces against that bottomless pit of Enkidus and then gotten wiped out by a strong Sumerian counterpunch.

Tone: Thanks for the good advice; I wouldn't have had the confidence to be this aggressive otherwise.

 

[Cerenkov]

Oh, and more good news:

Good to know that we're strong now; he'll probably start singing a different tune once we have to go through the entire Industrial age without a single unit with a defensive strength above three. I'll hopefully be alone on my continent by then, though.

I dunno, those Spanish Conquistadors might yet put me in my place. Definitely an overpowered unit in the hands of the AI.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Well done!

Just a question - why don't you use the army right now since you seem to be quite a few turns away from MilTrad? One victory > (prebuild for) Military academy > build as many cav armies as you want? Furthermore, one Knight Army now can perform so many useful services for you now!

 

[ignas]

I guess 32 knights is more than enough to conquer not only America, but the whole continent. Just be more agressive and conduct concentrated attacks. If you want to win this game very fast just turn off your science and do horse->cavalry upgrade via disconnecting/connecting iron (no more improvements, just units, assign taxmen in corrupted towns to helpecoomy)

Usually when miltary advisor says you are average it means you are stronger (you are doing concentrated attacks and AI's are building too much defensive units and counter attacks shouldn't be feared as it was in this game)

 

[MAS]

Also, don't build those walls. As soon as you conquer the next cities, those walls are not going to be of use anymore, but you still wasted turns and shields building them.

 

[CommandoBob]

Not bad at all. And a whole lot of fun, too!

This leaves America with 9 cities; 7 on your continent and 2 on the big island to the SE.

The 7 should fall rather quickly. Your next steps depend on how many turns are left in the MA with vs. America at that point. I think you have the strength for a 2 front war, if that war is a land war with Spain and an invasion of the American Island. I don't think I would start beating up on Spain until the remaining American cities on the mainland have been captured/razed. You will want to use your Trebuchets to work their magic on Spain like they did America, and that means time to get up to the frontline.

Remember, you have the advantage because you can plan. The AI can only react.

 

[TheOverseer714]

You are in a position to own your continent within 20-30 turns, if you plan carefully. Finish America first, then Spain must die! There are no rewards in this game for keeping non scientific tribes alive. Any weak civ must be eliminated, at least from your continent. On the other continent, Germany is you logical first conquest. Then the Mongols. Sumeria would be your last, toughest opponent, should you wish to win by Conquest.

 

[Tone]

Well you didn't waste much time with this one, Cerenkov! That latest picture looks a lot more commanding. Your only real risk must be flips so I guess that you'd better eliminate that option by taking over the whole continent and finish what you've started.