Help me solve a RIDDLE, please

stratego

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There are two students and two professors. The students were to each pick a number between 2 and 100. They'll tell one of the professor (Professor P) the PRODUCT of their numbers. And they'll tell the other professor (Professor S) the SUM of their numbers. The following conversation took place between Professor P and Professor S.

P: I don’t know the two numbers
S: I don’t know the numbers, but I knew you wouldn’t know them either
P: I know the numbers now!
S: I know the numbers now also

Edit: please post your thought process too.
So far I've concluded that the numbers can't both be prime, otherwise Professor P would know what they are.
 
Actually, if you told me the numbers know by the professors I could tell you the answer,
but that way..... I just dont figure it out yet...
 
Hmmm... I started it using brute force.

2, 2 = 4, 4 Both know.
2, 3 = 5, 6 Both know.
3, 3 = 6, 9 P knows.
2, 4 = 6, 8 P knows.
3, 4 = 7, 12 Neither knows. (Check all "S told 7.")
4, 4 = 8, 16 Neither knows. (Check all "S told 8.")
2, 5 = 7, 10 P knows. (3, 4 doesn't work.)
3, 5 = 8, 15 P knows. (3, 5 doesn't work.)
4, 5 = 9, 20 Neither knows. (Check all "S told 9.")

skipping to:

3, 6 = 9, 18 Neither knows.
2, 7 = 9, 14 P knows. (4, 5 doesn't work.)

etc.

I was hoping that the answer popped up quickly. No such luck.
 
stratego said:
There are two students and two professors. The students were to each pick a number between 2 and 100. They'll tell one of the professor (Professor P) the PRODUCT of their numbers. And they'll tell the other professor (Professor S) the SUM of their numbers. The following conversation took place between Professor P and Professor S.

P: I don’t know the two numbers
S: I don’t know the numbers, but I knew you wouldn’t know them either
P: I know the numbers now!
S: I know the numbers now also

Edit: please post your thought process too.
So far I've concluded that the numbers can't both be prime, otherwise Professor P would know what they are.
Do they share their information? Or do they know solely based on the info that the other doesn't know?
 
They don't tell each other the number they got.

This is a variation of the better known "daughter's age" problem:
P: hey! how have you been?
S: i got married and i have three daughters now
P: really? how old are they?
S: well, the product of their ages is 72, and the sum of their ages is the same as the number on that building over there..
P: right, ok ... oh wait ... hmm, i still don't know
S: oh sorry, the oldest one just started to play the piano
P: wonderful! my oldest is the same age!
(even though we don't know the number on the building, we can use the fact that the professor knows to figure out what the ages are. This problem should be solved the same way)
 
I don't fancy even trying the first one.
The second one seems a lot easier, but I don't understand how you can be certain which of the two possible answers is the right one.
Spoiler :
2 x 4 x 9 = 72 3 x 3 x 8 = 72
Since the number on the building could just as well be 2 + 4 + 9 = 15 or 3 + 3 + 8= 14 I don't think wee have enough information. Besides I think that both 8 and 9 are too old to start the piano.

I've never actually studied math in English so maybe I just don't know what PRODUCT means. I presumed it means what you get when you multiply the numbers, no?
 
Mathilda said:
I've never actually studied math in English so maybe I just don't know what PRODUCT means. I presumed it means what you get when you multiply the numbers, no?
You are correct, a product is the result of multiplying numbers.
 
Mathilda said:
I don't fancy even trying the first one.
The second one seems a lot easier, but I don't understand how you can be certain which of the two possible answers is the right one.
Spoiler :
2 x 4 x 9 = 72 3 x 3 x 8 = 72
Since the number on the building could just as well be 2 + 4 + 9 = 15 or 3 + 3 + 8= 14 I don't think wee have enough information. Besides I think that both 8 and 9 are too old to start the piano.

I've never actually studied math in English so maybe I just don't know what PRODUCT means. I presumed it means what you get when you multiply the numbers, no?

You're missing one way to get a product of 72. Does that help?

I've seen this one before, I have to admit. I've seen the initial one, too, but I won't spoil that one.

Renata
 
The second one could also be 9, 8 and 1 with the sum being 18. Of course, it could also be 1, 1 and 72, but I think it hardly likely that a man has a daughter who is 72 and twin daughters one year old.
 
Cuivienen said:
The second one could also be 9, 8 and 1 with the sum being 18. Of course, it could also be 1, 1 and 72, but I think it hardly likely that a man has a daughter who is 72 and twin daughters one year old.

There are numerous solutions for product of 72:

72, 1, 1
36, 2, 1
24, 3, 1
18, 4, 1
18, 2, 2
12, 6, 1
12, 3, 2
9, 8, 1
9, 4, 2
8, 3, 3
6, 6, 2
6, 4, 3
 
I have a feeling this is not a math problem, but actually a riddle.

The solution is probably painfully simple and obvious, and has nothing to do with prime-factorization or what have you.
 
Building problem:
Edit -
I over simplified it :(

I think the building is simply there to tell you the contraints.

Let ages be X, Y, Z; sum = S.

Ages: X = S - Y - Z
X = 72 / (YZ)

So: 72 / (YZ) = S - Y - Z.

72 = (S - Y - Z) * YZ

IE: You have a quadratic in Y (or in Z).

You can probably use the quadratic formula to solve, knowing that the constraints on the roots are that they have to be whole numbers.
 
It is a riddle, and the key is the "I still don't know".

Renata
 
I haven't managed to solve it yet, but I've derived some principles that can help someone else solve it. (Note: I exclude 1 and any n>100 from the possible factor pairs and the term "number".)
As stratego said, X and Y (the hidden numbers) cannot both be prime. If they were, P would know them. S knows that P does not know them; the only reason this could be is that S knows they are not both prime.
Goldbach's conjecture states that any expression 2n, where n is an integer greater than 1, can also be expressed as j + k, where j and k are prime numbers. What this means is that for S to know for sure they are not both prime, the sum of X and Y cannot be any even number except 4 (in the case that X and Y both equal 2). Since the latter is plainly false (both professors would know if it were true), we can conclude that X + Y is an odd number.
Let us proceed. From S's knowledge of P's ignorance, P concludes that X + Y is odd. This enables P to identify the numbers. Therefore, XY has multiple pairs of factors, but only one of them has an odd sum.
What does this mean?
First, XY must be even, since the only way to have odd-summed pairs of factors is for X to be odd and Y to be even. An odd times an even produces an even. XY is therefore divisible by 2.
From this, we know that the even-summed pairs of factors contain only even factors, because two odd factors, while possessing an even sum, would have an odd product.
Therefore, of the possible pairs of factors of XY, only one contains an odd factor.
This might not be enough to determine the numbers yet, but let's look at S's last statement.
P's knowledge of the numbers tells S what the numbers are. This means that S is faced with several different pairs of numbers that sum to X+Y, but that only one of these pairs are uniquely odd-summed factors of their product. Hence:
S= A + B or C + D or E + F or ... BUT only the pair {A,B} are the only odd-summed factors of their product.

To sum up:

1. XY is even.
2. X + Y is odd.
3. X is the only odd number that, when multiplied by an even number, produces XY.
4. X and Y are the only pair that sum to X + Y for which the above is true.

That should narrow it a little, but I don't know exactly how to apply 3 and 4 as limiters. I can't seem to get any further right now, and I need sleep. Maybe TLC or another will pick it up tomorrow before I can get to it again. :)
 
Actually, with Renata's prod, and extending Stratego's work, you note that:

72, 1, 1 = 74
36, 2, 1 = 39
24, 3, 1 = 28
18, 4, 1 = 23
18, 2, 2 = 22
12, 6, 1 = 19
12, 3, 2 = 17
9, 8, 1 = 18
9, 4, 2 = 15
8, 3, 3 = 14
6, 6, 2 = 14
6, 4, 3 = 13

I've got it now (and my previous effort was waaaayyy over-complicating things!)
 
I think statement 2 "I don’t know the numbers, but I knew you wouldn’t know them either" should eliminate a lot of numbers.

Correct me if you find any inconsistencies, but that statement should eliminate any number that could be represented as a sum of two primes. This means that Professor S (sum) can't get a number like 12.
12 can be represent as (11+1),(10+2),(9+3),(8+4),(7+5),(6+6)...etc but since one of the solutions is 7+5 (both prime) he wouldn't be able to sure that Professor P wouldn't know it either.

Given this list of primes, we should be able to eliminate a lot of numbers between 4 and 200. (min and max sum)
2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23
29 31 37 41 43 47 53 59 61
67 71 73 79 83 89 97
 
The answer is 4 and 13.

How to solve:
First, small help from a theorem: "any even number is possibly the sum of two prime numbers"

First step:

As S said P cannot find, it means the sum cannot be written as the sum of two prime numbers, or P would find it easily.

So of sum = 16 = 3+13 is possible, product would be 39, can P find it. So sum isn't 16.
Buf if sum = 17, it can be 2+15, 3+14, 4+13, 5+12, 6+11, 7+10, 8+9. No pair of prime numbers. So 17 is a possible sum.

Using the preivous theorem, you can already remove all the even numbers from the list of possible sums. Then, you check all the number from 5 to 199 (excluding even numbers), and see if it's possible to write it as the sum of two prime numbers. If it can, eliminate it. If it cannot, keep it.

Second step: You now have a list of possible sum, which give a list of possible pairs of number (exemple : 17 is a possible sum, (4,13) are candidate). With this information, P can find the solution. So you compute the product of all the remaining pairs, and you will get several possible products. If a product appears only once, then you keep it, if it appears more than once, eliminate it (or P wouldn't be able to find the solution).

Example (4,13) product = 52. If you check, you will see than no other couple can give 52 as a product. So you keep it.

Third step : Now you have reduced the possible couple even more. S can find the solution. It means that in the remaining couples, you eliminate all the couples that can gives the same sum... and (4,13) is the only one remaining

Funny part is they have tried through computers to extend the limit from [2,100] to [2, many millions] and there is still a unique answer : 4 and 13.
 
Steph said:
The answer is 4 and 13.

Small help : any even number is possibly the sum of two prime numbers

what about:
200, 198, 196? You can't get those with sums of prime numbers between 2 and 100, since the largest sum you can get is 194: 97+97. To think of it 192, 190, and 188 doesn't work either. There's probably more, but not that many more.

I'm assuming the computer program that tested to the millions doesn't put the boundary at 2 and 100.

Edit: Do you know how to write a computer program that would systematically eliminate numbers? If you and anyone does, it would help a lot.
 
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