Help needed - Two AIs blocked, how to continue? (Immortal Suleiman)

[CivSetä]

I'm in a important phase in my current game (Suleiman, Immortal, Epic speed, Fractal, standard size). I have built five cities, and effectively blocked two other AIs on my continent, Hyuana and Mao. I am in the middle, Hyuana is in north (3 cities), Mao is south (7 cities) and in the west is huge tropical wilderness waiting for settling. Hyuana has founded confucianism and is pressing my border cities. I have built monuments and libraries, and situation should get easier after border pops. Mao has two cities bordering me, at the moment I have no cultural problems with him. I'm planning to build as many cultural buildings as possible in Bursa. I even thought about building Parthenon for 10.

It's year 575 BC. I have both copper and horses, but I am relatively low on power. I had some hard time with barbs, they all came after me! Both AIs have open hands, luckily. I am two turns away from Aesthetics, and I have just generated my firts GS. I have marble for GL, which I am aiming for. No one has alphabet yet.

Currently I have open borders with both AIs. They are sending some troops after barb cities, which I don't like much. I'd like to keep all the land by myself, also barb cities. I have four issues where I need some help and opinions!

1) What should I do to grab all the land? I need COL and IW, obviously. I can't trade them both to Aesthetics, probably IW can be traded, but COL must be self-researched. I wish I can trade math too, but what then? CS-paper-edu-lib seems straightforward. Alphabet should be researched to allow bulbing. Calendar and currency should be possible to backfill. Rest of the early techs can be traded (with edu+lib+free tech) when another continent finds us.
But how to keep AIs away from my peninsula? I think I must close borders. It shouldn't harm relations too much if we all share the same religion. Right?

2) How about city placement? I'm planning to raze Harappan, and found two cities on flood plains. Jute seems worth keeping. But I couldn't make any sense on the middle! Any help appreciated!

3) I think that war is needed some point. I doubt that Huyana can build too much troops with only three cities, but it takes long time to strenghten my economy and army. I think I shouldn't dream about war before reneissance era. Also it's worth waiting to collect some juicy wonders which Hyuana likes to build.
China will be harder because of protective trait. I built my city on hill to make defence easier, Mao will probably attack one point if I can't rise in power quickly. But he should be manageable after I settle all the land, right?
Any other ideas? Or should I play peacefully?

4) About liberalism race, I think it is winnable, especially if I get GL. Suleiman is philosophical, which means my 2nd GS is only 24 turns away. At the moment I have three cities capable of hiring scientists.
What should I do with my first GS? At the moment I think he should be settled, as my research rate is getting lower when I assign more scientists. Currently I am breaking even at 40% (barbs made some harm pillaging my cottages).


State of the world, starting from general view:

Chinese border, I planned founding city 1N of Nanjing, but Mao just beat me:

Incan border, Ankara is having "ankara aika" (hard times in finnish ) because of Holy City in the north. I think I get clams back in few turns after border pop.

Lots of empty land ready for settling! Great for cottages, I think!

I tried making dotmap - this one is hard! Help me!

And here is the save:

 

[shyuhe]

in bts, if you close borders and box-in the AI, there's a chance that they will declare war on you in an effort to expand their borders. IT's a risk you'll have to take if you want to prevent them from settling the west. The spots you marked look good but it's a lot of desert - do you have the health bonuses necessary to grow those cities? I'd almost prefer to settle the jungle cities first but you'll need IW (and maybe even serfdom) to do that. What are Suleiman's traits? I've never played with him...

 

[Jet]

A few ideas.
* settle or academy scientist, self research Sailing and IW now - both top priority
* put off Aesthetics until they have Alpha, then try to get Math and Alpha for it.
* bulb Compass to trade for 2 out of Calendar, Currency, COL.
* close borders now (they may have trade routes with each other now, and Mao has the GL), reopen when you have Sailing and 2 Chariots to explore, close when you see Settlers.
* diplo: convert to Conf, give Cow to Mao
* skip the Parthenon and build units instead, because you don't have many hammers.

Ideal dotmap (although you can't really dotmap without seeing Iron)
(A) 1E of Sugar - production
(B) NE of Gems - research
(C) 1N of Jute on Sugar - GP farm
(D) your yellow - research
(E) your red - research
Let the AIs have the rest. Those are all good cities to settle before war, while keeping trade partners. Then maybe war, but waiting for Liberalism to Nationalism -> Marble Taj + Drafting might be good instead; have to wait and see.

 

[CivSetä]

Thanks for tips!

- Bulbing compass is interesting idea, maybe I'll try that! Because Suleiman is philosophical, It shouldn't be too hard to bulb philo+paper+edu later too.
- Settling jungle cities first is probably the thing to do. Flood plains were on my mind, but cities built in there lack both health and hammers anyway. Gems look juicy.
- I didn't notice GLighthouse built. Closing borders asap seems good idea!
- Building units is top priority, you're right about that.

I still think I shouldn't let AIs settle any more cities, I think I am able to hold them if they choose to declare war because of closed borders. Lot of axes and spearmen should do the trick. I wish I have time to continue game this weekend, I'll let you now what happened!

 

[L4zXX0r]

Personally, I would war on Huyana. He founded a religion. That's great. If you take him out, China should be no problem. You just need to gear up for war. I'd do whatever it takes to eliminate Huyana.

 

[CivSetä]

I had some time to play (there are many not so important things which can wait until tomorrow ) and I think I can win this one.

Huyana was able to sneak one settler beyond my borders just before my borders popped to completely block him. I continued pursuing Aesthetics and built Parthenon in Bursa. It was wise move, after finishing it there is no more problem with Chinese borders! I also got literature soon and built GL in capital. After that China almost declared war on me, but heavy whipping and unit building saved me, after building 15+ units his hand were not full anymore. That delayed me a bit, I think, it's already 1280AD and I'm still couple of turns away from Liberalism. No one else have it neither, luckily.

AIs did some weird teching. I was able to trade math and alpha (partially), but after that Huyana and Mao researched totally different paths, and they didn't want to trade! So there was no sense to bulb compass. I build academy in capital instead (1st GS was settled, by the way) and bulbed philo-edu-liberalism. I was able to found Taoism on the way. I had to self-reseach IW, CoL (traded for MC to Hyuana), compass (Mao had it, traded for calendar to Hyuana) and paper (while generating needed 3 GS). Now I have edu which none of them has, so I can backfill with it. I think I'll wait other continent before doing that, though. Next two GS are around 15 and 25 turns away.

So I am 4 turns away from Liberalism now. What should I pick? I am probably going to beeline to rifles and kill both Hyuana and Mao, after I recover my economy.

Some pics, first my mainland. No problems with China after building Parthenon in Bursa. Hyuana built one useless city over iron, but he can't use it because of closed borders.

Small Incan empire. Should I capture it right away with maces, or should I wait?

There is some nice city sites left.

China is mostly desert.

Cuzco looks juicy prize. Beijing is trade route monster, closing borders was a great move, Mao must be pissed off!

I'm not too much behind. Please notice, that I have education which is not visible yet because I just bulbed it.

And the save:

 

[ungy]

I'm not a big fan of the mace/cat war in BTS. The cats have been nerfed and the AI whips more aggressively than in warlords. The draft/rifle rush, with spies to takedown culture, on the other hand, is way overpowered. So I'd rush to rifling, maybe take Mao first as HC shouldn't be too tough later.
You need to hurry up on getting the globe going tho if you want that (and it's usually worth it).

After looking at the save a bit, I'm kind of surprised that you haven't developed the continent more. Looks like you just got the barb cities--very late.

I would not have been working specs outside the capital after their last GP pop, you have critical need for workers and at least 2 settlers. You have prime real estate not being settled at 1280AD--that is costly. Had you settled it you could have opened borders and gotten the trade bonuses. I would also be trading for GPT with both--atm you could be getting 9 GPT.

also why are you still in despotism?--your cities could be much bigger in HR--one city is not working a 6F tile and not growing.

 

[CivSetä]

Yes the continent is kinda undeveloped. As I mentioned, I had to whip really hard to stop Chinese war plans. Really didn't have time to build enough workers/settlers. I'll build three settlers and couple of workers asap to claim the land, or maybe after TM (I really could use golden age!).

About despotism: I just traded monarchy, I'll wait until Liberalism before revolution.

I'm planning to get rid of Hyuana soon, if I win Liberalism race I'll pick nationalism, self-research gunpowder and draft some magnificient janissaries to run over Incas. I doubt Huyana can get gunpowder soon enough, so I'll probably face only longbows (Hyuana only have bronze, no horses or iron). Maybe two drafts per city is enough.

 

[Belisar]

You boxed in 2 AIs, that was a calculated risk as Shyuhe said but I wouldn't continue with a passive strategy. Take out the weaker (Inca) first, then concentrate all forces against China. Long term, a 2-front situation is not nice.
You play with the philo Otto leader? Cuzco will make an insane GP farm.

 

[xanadux]

Being philisophical, I'd have strongly considered farming those flood plains and running specialists. It won't take long to whip granaries, libraries, and markets in a couple cities to run 4 specialists at size 7. You could easily have 3 cities on that flood plain river all running 4 specialists.

You could also settle 1 city in the middle and work cottages (once you have the health, you can work 10 cottages + 6 specialists), and one on each end running specialists and/or growing the cottages for the middle city.

 

[Bhruic]

Cuzco looks juicy prize. Beijing is trade route monster, closing borders was a great move, Mao must be pissed off!

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Both HC and Mao have Feudalism as "can't trade" techs. That means they must have traded it with someone else - which means they can have open borders and trade routes with that Civ (assuming someone has Astronomy).

Bh

 

[CivSetä]

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Both HC and Mao have Feudalism as "can't trade" techs. That means they must have traded it with someone else - which means they can have open borders and trade routes with that Civ (assuming someone has Astronomy).

Bh

No, I just traded Monarchy, so I can trade Feudalism next turn.

 

[Bhruic]

Oops, didn't think of that.

Bh

 

[CivSetä]

Finally had some time to play!

Got Liberalism first, picked Nationalism, researched Gunpowder. Huge deficit research financed by crazy trading. Everything had to go, but backfill was complete. Chopped Taj mahal for GA, changed to nationalism-theocracy, the some crazy whipping and drafting. Huyana had replaceable parts that time, so I had to go before building enough siege units to win before he had rifles.
Inca was easy prey, but Huyana managed to get both Toku and Gilgamesh after me too. Not a big deal, as those poor bastards never send any single unit against me. China had full hands, so I was afraid of Huyana vassallising to his best buddy. Luckily that never happened!

Here is my stack approaching Inca empire.

After Huyana fell I had to recover and research Replaceable parts and rifling. I was second on rifling, so I was able to backfill again. I sent GM to Sumeria to finance my upgrades. China had stronger army, so I had to spend couple of turns killing his endless stacks. Mao didn't have rifling, so it was kinda funny to watch him wasting his units against my rifles!

So the entire continent is finally mine, except one little sumerian village. I have hermitage nearby, so after couple of turns it will be mine. Techwise things are not looking so good:

But my GNP is rising rapidly:

And stupid AIs are fighting each other:

Toku haven't been fighting for a while, so I think I must garrison my western border in case of surprise attack.


It's almost 1800 now, but I think this game is still winnable. Teching is fast now and internet beeline should help more. I can raise tech slider every 2-3 turn, so my economy is recovering really fast. Every city is in growth mode and I'm building lots of cottages around.

And here is the save:

 

[CivSetä]

Late space victory, 1960.

Internet beeline was the key, got almost every late tech. Stupid AIs went after military techs, so I reached Fusion first and got GE for space elevator. I had huge lead in production which helped too:

Toku attacked me two more times, and suicided huge stacks against my fortified cities without even softening defences first. Got more than 100 XPs in one turn! Didn't bother competing in power, so my rating was quite low. I knew which cities he probably attacks, and garrisoned only those. Some ships were waiting in port to destroy enemy boats. Not too hard!

I also wanted to stir some action in other continent to slow them down a bit. First I bribed Hammurabi to attack Toku, then Wang Kong to attack Hammurabi. Hammurabi and Gilgamesh were wise enough to start war without my help. Starting some wars was really useful and probably made victory possible. Domination could have been doable too, because Toku stayed really backward until I sold him some tech to finance one extra future tech. His land combined to mine would have been almost enough, probably few Korean cities would have been needed too.

Lessons learned:
- Build economy first. I had too few workers and cities before Incan war.
- Blocking AIs works great! Maybe I acted too late? Huyana could have been killed much earlier, but at least this way I got more Wonders.
- Drafting works! Especially Ottoman leaders and Zara can easily draft big UU army this way. I think without drafting Huyana could have reached rifling in time (he had replaceable parts) and ruined my attack. Drafting rifles was also very useful.
- Never give up! Internet beeline and stupid AIs mean winning changes even from really backward position.



Thanks for reading and giving good advices!