Help wanted, tips please?

[varus]

Here's a save I'm playing on Prince, as Liz.

I play on Prince at least once a day and I frequently get a very strong start, even with random leaders. However, this is right about the time I usually start to fall behind.

I would be very appreciative if any of you would like to look at this save and give me some ideas where I need to go from here, or where I SHOULD have gone a while back.

You can tell it took me a long time to get the war machine running, since I had no copper in my starting borders. I used chariots to keep the enemies away from it too, though, so the military strength is still there. My army, once fleshed out some more (tired from a recent war) is the best on my continent, and easily capable of disabling both Catherine and Tokugawa before they become too much.

I've got to hit Tokugawa right now.
He built a city on an island that has access to iron, once he gets it I'm going to have a much harder time beating him.
My options are to either try to storm the island city and destroy the source of iron, or to take out his production cities that would be making use of it after he got it.

Personally, I prefer the second option, because storming that dinky little island won't disable the iron flow for long and won't gain me hardly anything. He only has 3 cities with any production to speak of, two of which are very close to my borders. I think I can take out his war cities before he gets to use them, but I can't be sure.

I need to watch my economy. You can see I'm running specialists in London and I have 1 solid money city in Nottingham. York is doing well pumping out the units.
The three cities I captured from Russia though, I'm still not sure what to do with. You can see my research slider is going to have to dip pretty low until I can get those courthouses up, at which point I can resume conquest.

I'm waiting for my next GS so I can pop liberalism, he should be arriving pretty soon. After that I will switch out of Pacifism.

Ok, that's all I can think of...
Please let me know where you think I should go from here.
(This is usually the point at which I start to fall behind. What's likely to happen is one or two badguys from the other continent will declare on me as soon as I attack Toku, and that will spell disaster)


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/67282/Helpwanted.CivWarlordsSave

Ok, a little tiny update:
My GS showed up in London just like I wanted and I used him to pop Liberalism.
With liberalism under the belt, I took Natlsm as my free tech.
Also, that same turn I switched civics, currently running:
Rep, Bureaucracy, Caste System, Decentralization, Free Religion (with a gold economy now, the +10% Beakers will help)
My military is consolidating on the gold mine north of York, and I will attack Satsuma when they get there.
London has now become a commerce city, since I no longer have need of the Pacifism and GS's. I will still get a few when the Epic is done there.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/67282/Varus2319_AD-0756.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Michelangelo]

Sounds to me like you have quiet a good grasp on what's going on and what's important.

I cannot look at the save from here, but you never talk about diplomacy. Make 1 or 2 friends in the game, this will help you very much on trading, helping in a war. Maybe this is an underdeveloped area of your game.

Good luck

 

[frob2900]

Hi,

I took a look at your game. It's looking all right, I suppose. Don't worry too much about tokugawa. He doesn't even have Metal Casting or CoL, so his samurai are a way off.

I think you can cripple toku and catherine at your leisure (but don't be TOO leisurely about it). What does it matter if an off-island civ attacks? They wont have galleons yet so any invasion force should be easy to brush aside. Just put a few triremes on your fish..

Your science seems to be slightly better off than your production due to financial and colossus etc. Get machinery. Build a few axes and turn them into macemen. This should help you to take catherine and toku no problem.

Once you have crippled them (for Toku you take Kyoto/Satsuma/Osaka/Izumo in your next war, for catherine take everything ) you can easily beeline rifling and get astronomy. Then draft and whip a bunch of trebuchets and redcoats and its check-mate.

Personally I think you arent aggressive enough. Once you noticed horses in Londons BFC you should have took either tokus or catherines capital immediately. Probably Catherines due to tokus protective trait. On prince there is no limit to your expansion; the AIs military just plain sucks.

But don't worry, your in a solid position, doing just swell. Don't be afraid of being attacked, its nothing a bit of whipping can't fix

[EDIT] I certainly wouldnt run caste system yet, not before the power struggle on your continent is sorted out a bit more. Whip your citizens silly in order to kill your neighbors quicker. Caste system will just make you apprehensive of war due to your more limited production.

Also, you actually have two really good military options immediately available. You should get machinery as mentioned above, but gunpowder is also available! I think Nationhood with gunpowder would be a much stronger civic than Bureaucracy. Although London is sort of commerce heavy, its production is kind of bleh, so that 3 musketmen/turn from drafting will probably win you the game better than 50% extra commerce in London.

 

[varus]

Sry for off topic and noob but what is BFC?

 

[frob2900]

BFC = Big Fat Cross

The BFC is this area around a city

 ooo
ooooo
ooxoo
ooooo
 ooo

x=city
o=workable tile

Basically every workable tile. Also the tiles whos resources youll be able to grab one the city has 15 culture. I meant that since the horses were in Londons BFC you could theoretically have started building chariots as soon as you had wheel and animal husbandry.

Sry for off topic and noob but what is BFC?

 

[frob2900]

Also, judging from your earlier Gandhi game, I'd say you are placing too much weight on getting the Great Library at expense of expansion. Sure, you had marble so it certainly was a realistic wonder, but you shouldnt have been building it at the time you did, IMHO.

You should have been building axes and chariots in the bc years, rather than the GL.

Catherine completed the pyramids in 110 AD in Moscow, very close to your capital, and you took until 825 AD to conquer them!

I think one should bear in the mind that the way Civ IV is set up

Warfare=
Small Wonder Heavy Empire=

Since its prince, you could easily have fit in a war of expansion pre-AD and still got the GL. No problemo

[EDIT] To illustrate nationalism and slavery in action, I played the war against Tokugawa after researching gunpowder and machinery:


The english power surge is from musket drafting in London, York and Nottingham together with catapult whipping. Tokugawa surrendered with two cities left in 1310 AD. Those new captured cities bumped up the english score so that england is now first and after taking catherine any victory condition should be doable.

 

[varus]

I have never drafted a soldier in my life.

It's always been my understanding that unless you had a city that could grow fast and eliminate happiness issues, then drafting wasn't a realistic option.

So I guess, what kind of scale am I looking at here? How many muskets did you draft and what did you use them for?

I would figure not too many, and did you use them on the front line?

 

[varus]

Holy crap!

I tried what you did, to get toku to surrender by 1310...

I switched to natlsm and started drafting some muskets, that sunk my cities pretty fast, after 1-2 muskets each they were at their happiness caps and the +6 would remain for 60 someodd turns.

Not to mention that the rapid expansion of my borders has caused my research slider to plummet to 30%... that can't be good.

I've only managed to take the Kyoto-Osaka-Izumo-Satsuma area.

My army is poised to continue north, but at what cost?

My primary gold cities were smashed by the drafting, and my territory is expanding faster than I can afford to upkeep it. Even if I DO manage to vassal Toku in the next few turns, that's only going to make matters worse by increasing the upkeep in my own cities.

I can see that in the long term having all this land would pay off, but in the very short turn it feels like my whole system is coming crashing to the ground...

Is all this chaos worth the 6 muskets I get from drafting?
Seriously, they haven't even been all THAT helpful... they only came into play during one siege. I've mostly been using them to defend.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/67282/Varus2319_AD-1135.CivWarlordsSave

There's the save of my attempt to do what you did.
I switched back to Bureaucracy because I could use the gold boost and I wasn't really in a position to keep drafting anyway, what with my cities being at near-bust.

So... what am I missing here? Did I do something wrong?
Or maybe I'm just making a bigger deal out of it than it really is...
How long will my economy be in the slump it's in, do you think?
Will I be able to maintain decent research in the near future?


I dunno what I'm doing... it just feels like I"m very close to losing.

 

[frob2900]

The drafting unhappienss isnt like slaving unhappiness, the +6 "Hell No.." wont take 60 turns to vanish.

Your primary gold cities arent smashed at all. Just use the "emphasize growth" button and they'll be back in no time. You might want to farm over the cottage in your military city (York) tho (I dont think you should use your promary military city as a backup commerce city, it just leads to being afraid of sacrificing commerce for production).

Why are you running any science at all at this point? As soon as I got machinery and gunpowder I ran 0% science in order to get at least 10 axes and swords upgraded to macemen. With the small empire and low production you have this is very important. Those maces take cities whereas muskets provide stack defence/garrison duty/backup city attack.

Your science will rebound no end once youve taken out Toku and Catherine. Dont get hypnotized by the slider. Its fine to run 0% science for periods of time when your doing conquests. With financial, the colossus and all those cottages in Tokus cities your economy will rebound in no time and the financial gains will in the long run far outweigh any temporary costs..

Theres no such thing as "cities going bust". If your income is positive even at 50% science and making over +100/turn at 0% science your economy is perfectly adequate to keep fueling the war.

Switching back to bureaucracy was all right I suppose, but then again it lost you the +2 happiness from barracks. I think you are making MUCH to big a deal about running the science slider at 50%+ all the time and having "a healthy economy". If its small its not healthy anyway. Youll be outteched by 20 city AI empires no end, however carefully you select civics and assign specialists and tiles.

Sure, economy is important, but its important after conquests. When youre preparing conquests you go in with everything you've got so that
a) They go quickly (prime importance)
b) You get enough worthwile land
c) You can beat any counter attack the AI tries

You should have got more maces! And you dont need to research feudalism, you can trade with Kublai for it!

[EDIT] PS. Having enough catas to take out cultural defence in 1-2 turns will make conquests much quicker, also You only need to sacrifice one catapult per city, your macemen will usually beat up the damaged defenders after that.

 

[varus]

Yea, you hit my fears right on the head.

I was beginning to think that maybe I was so used to having pretty little towns bustling with progress on the lower difficulties that I was afraid to get my hands a little dirty and grind some grease.

I'm going to revert to one of the saves that I put in the OP and try it all again, this time I'll try not be so timid.

Thanks for your help, you've provided a lot.

 

[frob2900]

No problem The reason I have so many opinions on the subject is that I was playing exactly like this when I first played prince about a year ago. By the time I was winning on Monarch there was no trace of that playing style left.

War is just too important!

[EDIT] Come to think of it there are some short periods where I have used a small empire with a high tech rate and lots of cottages and/or specialists temporarily:
a) Cho-Ko-Nu beeline with Qin Shi Huang/China
b) Berserker beeline with Ragnar.
c) Feudalism slingshot with Wang Kon to get protective longbows+hwachas
d) Pre 800 AD chemistry beeline. It can be done but you need good research in the capital and a number of GS.

The idea is that its alright to curtail your expansion if you believe it will pay off later. But by the same token, its alright to go to war "and get your hands dirty" if that will pay off later!

Yea, you hit my fears right on the head.

I was beginning to think that maybe I was so used to having pretty little towns bustling with progress on the lower difficulties that I was afraid to get my hands a little dirty and grind some grease.

I'm going to revert to one of the saves that I put in the OP and try it all again, this time I'll try not be so timid.

Thanks for your help, you've provided a lot.

 

[varus]

I went back and played through it the way you seemed to favor...

Long story short, Toku is my vassal with only Izumo and his island city Yokohama and Cat is my vassal with only Yekaterinburg, which is a production city in the far NE, and the two desert cities that have been east of Nottingham since forever.

Year is 1439.

My power rating was off the chart for a while, but now that these two are my vassals I went through a major military disbanding.

I got rid of all my macemen, catapults, and all but two pikes.
The only units I have now are Grens, Longbows, and Muskets.

I'm still #1 for power, but my little "line" took a big dip after the disband (my research popped up 10% though).

Can you believe, even with that whole continent under my belt I'm at 50% research!

Anyway, right now I'm cleaning the place up a bit, fixing some improvements and popping my culture borders. Research is still steady but I now have a question.

My score is much higher than anyone else, I'm #1 in power, and I have two vassal states.
That, to me, sounds like a recipe for war but the problem is that the enemies are on another continent (monty, Kublai, and Alex share one, and Luis is on another all by himself).

So... what should I do now?
Go for space? Go for conquest?


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/67282/Varus2319_AD-1439.CivWarlordsSave
I mean the game is pretty much won... but I'm just wondering how best to seal the deal. To be honest I've never been this powerful this late in the game on Prince before, so I just honestly don't know what to do with myself.

lol

 

[frob2900]

I checked out the 1439AD save. Looks good. If I were you I'd stomp Kublai Khan. Build frigates/galleons while you get rifling. Then draft up loads of redcoats and invade.

Id start the invasion on the peninsula on the western edge of the AI continent. Id also take that island north of the peninsula at the same time. Then keep on drafting and ferrying troops onto the AI continent while you systematically vassalize each AI in turn.

No tech after rifling should be necessary for conquest/domination.

For space race I'd also take the peninsula/island but perhaps stop after vassalizing Kublai. In case Alum/Oil/Coal is only on the AI continent you need a beachhead. If it turns out they are sitting on it then its much easier for you to attack with a few cities on their continent under your command.

 

[LlamaCat]

guys I have to say this is one of the most helpful posts I have ever read on here for a player of my level, struggling on Prince with some wins.

frob your analysis of his game really seemed to hit home for my own games and your points about lowering the slider and going all-out for war for the later payoff are what I have maybe still been afraid to try. Somehow your succint explanation has made it more clear to me than all the other strategy articles I have read. I tend to take out one opponent nearby early, but then I hunker down and try to outresearch everyone with the limited land I have available to me, and I always avoided the draft. Like varus was saying, I feel like it's too much penalty for my cities, but your points to counter that really make sense.

Thanks! Now I'm off to conquer Catherine on my crowded continent...

 

[zagnut]

I tend to take out one opponent nearby early, but then I hunker down and try to outresearch everyone with the limited land I have available to me, and I always avoided the draft. Like varus was saying, I feel like it's too much penalty for my cities, but your points to counter that really make sense.

"Limited land" is not a good position to be in in middle level games. Land is king and the more you can get the better. As Frob points out, it is OK for your economy to be adversely impacted by a war. If the war is successful then you will gain more land that is already developed and after you make peace and the war weariness disappears, your economy will come roaring back.

I try to be aggressive in sending out settlers to cut off the best land. The AI rarely does that. It seems to expand outward in a linear manner (i.e. it builds a new city adjacent to an existing city and very rarely will move far out and plunk down a city to cut off another civ from getting that location). If you can cut off resources from your neighbors, you can then fill in the area between the outlying city and your capital with the next settler.

If that strategy is not practical because of the geography then definitely attack at an early date. A 2 for 1 ratio of attacking units is usually sufficient against defending Archers. If the city has cultural defense above 20% wait for catapults and bring several of them. What you want to do is take the city in one turn. Combine all of your catapults together and bombard down the defenses. Any cat not needed for the bombard will be left over for you to use to directly attack the defenders and cause collateral damage. Usually not more than one is needed to give the advantage to your attacking units. Remember at least two units per Archer. The first unit may lose, but the Archer will be so weakened that the second unit will be able to defeat him.

Pick your targets carefully. You don't want to attack a civ with a strong early unit and lose. Always think through your strategy and know why you are attacking. If you can't verbalize it to yourself then perhaps you shouldn't do it.

 

[futurehermit]

At this point you could pursue either domination or space. Do whatever you need practice with most. If space: cottage everything except a few heavy production cities and lock in civics: US, FS, Em, SP, FR and go ftw. See my write up on my best time for space race victory. If domination: tech through military tradition, chemistry, steel, and rifling then shut down research (0&#37. Farm EVERYTHING. Whip/Draft like it's going out of style and use culture slider to combat Also make sure all happiness buildings are built in all cities. Eventually you will have to stop whip/drafting to get large enough cities for the population component of the victory.

Basically, draft rifles (get globe theatre built and use that city every turn with 2 others rotating around your empire so the same ones don't get hit each turn), whip/build grens/cannons/cavalry. Civics: PS (assuming pyramids or tech through fascism), Nh, Sl, SP, Th.

I tend to avoid taking vassals because their land only counts 50% and that means even more conquering is needed. Only time I consider taking a vassal is at the end where taking the vassal = victory.