Help with an isolated start

kuukkeli

King
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
874
Location
Finland
This time my Dutch found themselves on an isolated island. I could use some advice from the better players. Game settings are normal speed, monarch difficulty and hemispheres map (random number of variable continents, islands and standard size).

First the map of the island with my initial attempt of dot mapping included.
Spoiler :
isolateddutch.JPG


I, II and III are my city rankings from the best to worse. Some of the III's are quite shabby and hopefully they'll be preceded by offshore cities.

My original plan is to found the city with pigs, crabs and wheat next because it's close, I'm already able to use all of its resources and it has decent production capacity to help my growing empire to keep barbarians at bay. And as Dutch are creative it'll give me Marble in 50 turns and removes the immediate need to use settler to claim that resource.

After that I'm planning to found both of the northern horse cities (probably the closer one first or should I take the better commercial city first even though it's further?). Rest of the founding order is unclear and will probably be influenced by future resources such as iron.

Then comes the problem. What would be a feasible type of victory? Domination seems quite hard so I'm mostly considering space (is my land rich enough in both hammers and coins for this?) or culture (if this is the best way I'm going to need a little help with my teching order as I've never actually tried culture before).

So is there hope for the Dutch people or do they fall into oblivion?
 
Your dotmap looks fine - actually you don't have too much choices thanks to that desert. I would found exactly all those cities, except inland one which will never have much value (resources might change it, consider settling 1S of desert hills to claim desert resources faster).

It's late and I don't know about wonders built already, or techs you have, but I'd try to chop ToA and G Lighthouse ASAP. Your two cities have enough forests around them and AIs might get involved warring instead of wonders. With two extra coastal trade routes you could found all the cities on dotmap pre-COL.

IMHO starting island is ok. Every type of seafood is around and few happiness resources are around too. HR is still early priority.
Forget optics and let others find you, aim for Liberalism instead. Should be easy when you don't have to spend anything on espionage or military, actually I find isolated start much more easier on BTS. If you can win Lib-race, you should be the tech leader. Consider grabbing constitution or even democracy with liberalism, AIs are much slower on BTS and SoL is still nice to have.

I would go for space victory. Dutch UB which will have a huge boost to your production, so I wouldn't worry about that. Beeline to internet after steam power, AIs won't trade you space techs anyway.

Go ahead and let us know how it went!
 
I would skip the green III and possibly one of the pink III cities if I could find an unsettled island nearby. You only need 9 for cultural - so don't force garbage cities beyond that number.
 
Diplomacy is extremely doable for an isolated start. You get the advantage that you can pick and choose your allies a lot easier as you don't get caught in the early wars. See some of the Lonely Hearts club games (you may have to scroll back a bit) - we did a series on isolated starts.

Early game, get your economy up first (Code of laws, Monarchy and Civil Service are priorities), then race to Optics and Astronomy.

Then choose who you want to ally. Stay with no state religion and try and get trading modifiers. Notice who the "worst enemies" are and choose a collection of AIs you can trade with that like each other.

After Astronomy priorities are going to be Steam Power, Democracy and then beeline Electricity and Radio. If the diplomatic situation has gone to custard go for Computers for Internet and Labs and go for a space win. If it hasn't go straight to mass media and build the UN. Change to as many favorite civics as you can and watch your friends vote you in.
 
Cultural is fairly hard for an isolated start - unless you can easily pick up three religions. I like to avoid starting religions since the fewer you start the more the AI start, which helps keep them at each others throats until you meet them.
 
InvisibleSlake and CivSetä advices are good ones ( like always ;) ). I would think on space or diplo ( I prefer space, but is a personal choice ), but remember that ,regardless of the victory you choose, you'll need to overcome the AI tech trades, so economical buildup is a must. Go to Monarchy, for HR and CoL, for courthouses, get CS, work those FP tiles with cottages and have some collateral delivering units ( cats, trebs,... ) to deal with a possible AI thinking it is Hernan Cortez :p
 
I've been lost in the 4 SG's I'm playing...

About the LHC: I just PMed willpax for his blessing ( he has a mac, so it is unlikely that he'll join us for a while :( ).

I'm thinking about a series of saves from Noble to Emperor/Immortal ( BTS immortal looks easier than Warlords Immortal, so maybe someone may want to try it :p ), with D. João II or Willem. Do you like the idea?
 
I've been lost in the 4 SG's I'm playing...

About the LHC: I just PMed willpax for his blessing ( he has a mac, so it is unlikely that he'll join us for a while :( ).

I'm thinking about a series of saves from Noble to Emperor/Immortal ( BTS immortal looks easier than Warlords Immortal, so maybe someone may want to try it :p ), with D. João II or Willem. Do you like the idea?

Very much. Portugal sounds good for this one.
 
For me, there are 3 main priorities in an isolated start. (Note: These are open to debate)

1) Get your cities up before the 1200s. Even if this involves a settler rush, if u play at Normal, the trading available to other civs ensures that they can hit Optics and Astronomy faster than you can, since you have to research all your wanted techs. If you're playing at Epic or Marathon, it shifts to later centuries.
Also, related to the city thing, have a main production center be a sea city for quick shipbuilding.

2)Have a good economy up and running. This means hitting Currency, Code of Laws, and Civil Service (like InvisibleStalke said) quick. Once you have these, open your Tech Advisor and click on Optics. The computer picks the fastest tech path to any chosen tech and begins research. Once you hit Optics, start pumping out Caravels. Trade money or whatever for essentials like Chemistry that'll get you a quick Astronomy.

3) Have a good diplomatic front. Caravels in your LoS lead to "First Contact" with an AI. Since this might occur before your Optics, get friendly with them by switching to their religion, and get a world map. With this, you can plan more diplomatic options. In some cases, you managed to make contact with another loner or a hated Civ on the main continent. In these cases, switch into the favor of another AI right away.
 
For me, there are 3 main priorities in an isolated start. (Note: These are open to debate)

1) Get your cities up before the 1200s. Even if this involves a settler rush, if u play at Normal, the trading available to other civs ensures that they can hit Optics and Astronomy faster than you can, since you have to research all your wanted techs. If you're playing at Epic or Marathon, it shifts to later centuries.
Also, related to the city thing, have a main production center be a sea city for quick shipbuilding.

2)Have a good economy up and running. This means hitting Currency, Code of Laws, and Civil Service (like InvisibleStalke said) quick. Once you have these, open your Tech Advisor and click on Optics. The computer picks the fastest tech path to any chosen tech and begins research. Once you hit Optics, start pumping out Caravels. Trade money or whatever for essentials like Chemistry that'll get you a quick Astronomy.

3) Have a good diplomatic front. Caravels in your LoS lead to "First Contact" with an AI. Since this might occur before your Optics, get friendly with them by switching to their religion, and get a world map. With this, you can plan more diplomatic options. In some cases, you managed to make contact with another loner or a hated Civ on the main continent. In these cases, switch into the favor of another AI right away.

1) I semi-agree. The critical thing is to get all your continent settled before the other civs have Astronomy so that they don't see any land to build a city of their own on. This helps diplomacy (no border tensions) and ensures you get enough cities. But the good thing about an isolated start is that you don't need to land grab to compete with the AI. Initially I would settle only good city locations and make sure I can keep research going. If needs be you can crank out 3-4 settlers once you have made contact to settle any remaining locations.

Good advice on the coastal production cities - I like to have at least two ship building cities - one on each side of my continent to send caravels in each direction.

2) Great advice.

3) Great advice. I am usually careful about trading with the first AI I see, as you can end up annoying people you haven't even met yet.

Philosophy makes a pretty good trade tech - easily had with your existing research path and a great scientist. If you get it early enough to found Taoism then even on Emperor you will likely find some AIs without it.

Otherwise it may be a while before you have much to trade. A good skill is identifying technologies that you can research and trade to multiple AIs.
 
Okay, thanks for the advice this far. It seems that I need to pursue either diplomatic or space victory, and regardless of which I choose the immediate goals are the same: get my economy up and running (Monarchy, Currency and Code of Laws - and perhaps the wonders CivSetä mentioned as well), find others and befriend with the select few (Optics and Astronomy) and get more hammers with my UB.

I'll let you know how things develop.
 
An update coming. I believe I've managed to do pretty much what you've instructed.

I built the wonders recommended by CivSetä and because of ToA I founded the marble city next. Also the weak inland city became much better as the only iron of the island appeared right next to it. Silk city's founding was slightly delayed because of the intervening barbarian city on the plain hill NE of the upper silk (which I razed of course). I'm still missing couple of cities from my dot map but they're rather low priority (I guess I'll have to fill the space in SW corner of the island though). Here's my island on 1240 AD.

Spoiler :
isolatesdutch3.JPG


I have few trimeres parked on top of my fishing boats and couple of caravels have just left looking for others. I'm researching Education now and I'm planning to get Astronomy as a free tech from Liberalism to get my UU (or would it be better to take some prerequisite for either Democracy or Steam Power - do I really need those ships that much as I'm not planning any naval invasions?).

Also my fears of being backwards after thousands of years of isolation didn't came true. Here's the tech trade screen for the first three civs I've met.

Spoiler :
isolatesdutch2.JPG


Any further advice at this point or do I just go Astronomy - Steam Power - Democracy?
 
Great job so far!

Take astronomy asap. It will multiply your trade routes and enables your great UU, which will keep invaders away until frigates arrive. Remember to start funding espionage now, knowing what your enemies are researching is very useful when you want to know optimal trading time.
 
^^Agreed. First, astro gives you your UU ( a really nice one, by the way ), and second, you've only find 3 civs until now and, in spite of all being backwards, they aren't exactly the ones that we would expect to runaway techwise... Who knows, maybe there is a Catherine out there :mad: and you may need a protecting fleet. Third, you might consider founding a colony to take advantage of the foreign trade routes and astro gives you both oceanic trade routes and the means of making a overseas colony.
 
Wow, you're doing great, congratulations! :good job:
As rolo and CivSeta said, take Astronomy ASAP. The fact that you're so far ahead in tech proves that you know what you're doing. This is good.
Now, for the long term. I'd suggest pumping out another caravel and taking a quick shot to the unexplored North East. Check if there are more islands you can settle with essential resources. After grabbing Astronomy, you can settle these areas. After that, its off to military might. Grab the techs you'll need to be on top of the power chart for the rest of the game. Now, make sure that you know what the basic outlines of the other continents are; you can use that to your advantage when attacking an enemy amphibiously. Or, try to grab small islands close to the main continent to create a "power base" to launch your armies from (Exp; South Coast of England for D-Day)
 
Thigs are going slightly worse now. I was aiming for the diplomatic victory and worked my arse off to build my relations. Here's the glance from few turns before the UN was finished.

Spoiler :
isolateddutch4.JPG


At this moment Gilgamesh was going to be my rival candidate but just before the UN Shaka managed to outpopulate him. With Shaka as my competitor I of course lost the vote. Well, I did decide to give it another try and started a (nominal) war against Shaka after they declared against Togukawa. Again relations started to look rather promising but just before the vote Nappy (with whom I had just got to friendly) became my competitor. Time to abandon the diplomatic route.

I still have technological lead, my island is protected by large navy and all my coastal cities have nice bunch of defenders. Surrounding islands have almost nothing I want in resources (I have oil and uranium on my own island) so I haven't expanded (except one small island that became Lincoln). It really looks like space is my last best hope for victory now.

EDIT: Finished the game with a not-so-impressive space victory on 2027. My score was 7807. I'm not too worried about the score though as this was my first victory on monarch. On this game the BtS AI seemed very slow on teching (I believe Shaka was trying space victory too but he never got further than Apollo Program and was 5 turns from Flight when the game ended, and he pathetically declared on me on the turn I won).
 
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