Help with immortal game

[melpolo]

I'm pretty new to immortal and I thought I'd go for a domination... but I'm stuck (No BNW, only G&K). I got lucky with an isolated start, took Carthage early on, declared war on Greece, but I can't get any further.

I made the mistake of allying two city-states in his vicinity before the DOW, and now his empire's two cities larger. I rushed to tech artillery, but he too now has artillery and great war bombers (but not that many yet). He and China's in modern, I'm in industrial.

Spoiler :

The funny thing is I thought he would send his military over to Hippo Regius so I could camp my artillery there and take shots at him. But he won't invade.. even though he has more than double my military. I wonder why the AI is doing that? And that sad pile of units at Hippo Regius? Yep, that's my entire army. I'm getting flight soon but great war stuff don't have the range to hit the Greek cities.

Spoiler :

So how would you guys play this out? I would like some advice. Should I give up domination and go a different route? Also, is it better to rush to flight rather than artillery?

 

[claudiupb]

Did you adopt Autocracy? How far into it are you? I see you have a decent GPT so if you got Militarism you can just rush buy a decent military force.
I see you do not have any oil so getting flight will not help you unless you can immediately buy some oil from others. I would just research biology to see the oil on the map, and try to steal flight from the Greeks. But that really depends on how you filled the tech tree so far, you could do it the other way also.
In this situation you don't really have a decent space to set up artillery, because enemy cities surround you, so maybe build a naval force. Tech to battleships, and build frigates in the mean time to upgrade, and on land just play a defensive war until you have planes and battleships. After that it should be easier. But you need to see the oil first so tech to that first.

 

[Chunkook]

He's 8 techs ahead of you. At your stage of the game that's a lot. Since you don't have a big army the maintenance won't be a hit for you, so maybe sign the papers and try to tech up. Doesn't look like other VCs are possible. DiploV with 10-12 CSs and Alex in the game is a no-go; I don't know what's the CV in G&K, but your cpt is too low to go for it anyways; You ain't getting more points without a fight, so peaceful TimeV is out of the question as well. That leaves SV or DomV and you need techs for both.

Better yet wait for others to answer, I'm no pro.

Edit: Just saw claudiupb's post and that seems to me like a good strategy to continue the war if you choose so.

 

[melpolo]

Did you adopt Autocracy? How far into it are you?

Oops I went Order.. should have I gone Autocracy?

I see you do not have any oil so getting flight will not help you unless you can immediately buy some oil from others. I would just research biology to see the oil on the map, and try to steal flight from the Greeks. But that really depends on how you filled the tech tree so far, you could do it the other way also.
In this situation you don't really have a decent space to set up artillery, because enemy cities surround you, so maybe build a naval force. Tech to battleships, and build frigates in the mean time to upgrade, and on land just play a defensive war until you have planes and battleships. After that it should be easier. But you need to see the oil first so tech to that first.

Yeah I didn't think of oil before uploading this. Would flight help? Planes wouldn't have the range to any of the Greek cities yet. As for a navy I'm ice-locked on my continent so I'd have to go around England. But I guess it's a viable option. Thanks for the tip But the thing is if I get modern era techs, he'll be into the atomic. Is it possible to wage a war with someone so ahead in tech? It rarely happens in Emperor
so I'm not sure about the possibility to win.

Better yet wait for others to answer, I'm no pro.

No it's good advice! But I was thinking, maybe if I invest every last penny and spy into city-states, I could get a diplo victory? But that I just don't want, because, well, it's a diplo victory. As for science, everybody on the planet hates me, so no research agreements.

Would it perhaps work if I postpone the war with Alex, deal with England and China first, increase my chance for uranium, and nuke him?

 

[beetle]

I'm pretty new to immortal ... I made the mistake of allying two city-states in his vicinity before the DOW, and now his empire's two cities larger.

My recommendation is to reload back to before your DOW and see if you can work on the timing. What would have happened if your arties were in place at the start? You are new to Immortal, and dom is hard, so give yourself the opportunity to learn.

EDIT: I think you also needed to have had Vatican City as an ally before the DOW on Alex. You had two CS in the vicinity, but he had one. A net difference of one CS is not much of an advantage. But three CS would really have tipped the scales in the opening battle! If Alex has too much influence with VC, then DOW VC first but let Kuala Lumpur capture it.

If reloading feels like cheating to you (not that it should), then I suggest turtling up and reorienting for a SV. That’s what I usually do when my dom runs peter out, even games where I went Autocracy. SV very much feels like a legitimate win. I think you have plenty of time to catch up in tech, and so long as you can snag Hubble, you should be fine.

The funny thing is I thought he would send his military over to Hippo Regius so I could camp my artillery there and take shots at him. But he won't invade.. even though he has more than double my military. I wonder why the AI is doing that?

The AI is not entirely stupid, and a 2:1 ratio for military rating is not enough for the AI to go all out. It is pretty easy to bait the AI into a kill zone, but the AI needs to see open territory leading into your trap (and not have visibility on the firepower you have behind a city).

That said, what happens if you advance three arties 1 (or 2) hexes forward? The idea is to have three just within city bombardment range on the next turn. On that next turn, one is hurt or killed, but another advances into place. You have enough units so that that two arties can fire on Argos for three or four turns in a row. Shouldn't that be enough?

Oops I went Order.. should have I gone Autocracy?

Order works well for both SV and dom. But yes, if you really want to win by domination, Autocracy is the way to go.

Yeah I didn't think of oil before uploading this. Would flight help? Planes wouldn't have the range to any of the Greek cities yet.

My arties are always killed by air. When I plan to try the bomber route, it inevitably turns out that I lack oil or targets are out of range. Dom is hard!

As for science, everybody on the planet hates me, so no research agreements.

You can win SV without RAs. I like them very much, but are not at all necessary.

Would it perhaps work if I postpone the war with Alex, deal with England and China first, increase my chance for uranium, and nuke him?

I have tried, but never been able to make nukes the key factor to a domination victory. They are either icing on the cake or come too late to stop an AI CV or SV. That said, you should plan and look forward to nuking Alex as your SV draws near...

 

[claudiupb]

I'm no pro either, I recently made the jump to immortal and I have 5-6 victories. So maybe my advice is not optimal.

Order is also good, if you went order you can focus on science more. If you also steal some techs from Alexander you may surpass him and even win a Science Victory. Autocracy would have helped get a massive military with extra XP, and that could have compensated a little the fact that he was ahead in tech.

You definitely need flight if Alexander has it, at least for interception, plus it is on the tech path for other good military techs.

There is the possibility to attack China and England first if they are behind in tech, but England has the naval advantage so you need battleships (and maybe subs) to be safe. In the meantime just hassle Greece with a defensive war just to keep him focused on units instead of infrastructure. This strategy also works well because when you start to push your army towards the Greeks you only need to get Athens and the game is over.

I would not try to get a diplomatic victory, Alexander will steal all your CSs. Plus you need peace with him in order to steal his CSs and he may not accept it. I know that in G&K the AI is really stubborn when ending a war, and in most cases he will demand some cities from you.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Honestly, at this point I'd buckle down and go for a Paratrooper/XCOM decapitation strike or buy everyone out at the UN

 

[Tiber4321]

I'm playing domination games at Immortal these days (G&K). Its a challenge. You're probably too far behind in science and you have happiness issues. Do you have enough culture to open rationalism and maybe buy 1 or 2 GSs?

You won't win this by domination.

 

[melpolo]

My recommendation is to reload back to before your DOW and see if you can work on the timing. What would have happened if your arties were in place at the start? You are new to Immortal, and dom is hard, so give yourself the opportunity to learn.

Thanks for the detailed advice beetle! I don't mind reloading to try out a different strategy. Actually at the start I took out Hippo Regius, and probably only because he was busy with the city-states. I really wish I could have allied Vatican before the DOW, but really, I could have gotten a bigger military had I not thrown so much money at the city-states around my cities and Brussels/Kuala Lumpur. He was getting every single one of them! Though not surprising since he's Greece. I was actually regretting allying Brussels/Kuala because now Argos is surrounded by two cities.

Spoiler :

The AI is not entirely stupid, and a 2:1 ratio for military rating is not enough for the AI to go all out. It is pretty easy to bait the AI into a kill zone, but the AI needs to see open territory leading into your trap (and not have visibility on the firepower you have behind a city).

That said, what happens if you advance three arties 1 (or 2) hexes forward? The idea is to have three just within city bombardment range on the next turn. On that next turn, one is hurt or killed, but another advances into place. You have enough units so that that two arties can fire on Argos for three or four turns in a row. Shouldn't that be enough?

Interesting! But he wasn't really coming after me even when my units weren't so visible, which is why I pressed forward. Hmm, maybe he thought I was so pathetic I wasn't even worth his time? I did use my artillery to take Argos - twice. But he kept taking it back so, so easily, so I pulled back. I think he could have easily crushed all my artillery at that point with his great war bombers + infantry.. but he didn't.

Spoiler :

I have tried, but never been able to make nukes the key factor to a domination victory. They are either icing on the cake or come too late to stop an AI CV or SV. That said, you should plan and look forward to nuking Alex as your SV draws near...

You're right.. I should go science and try for domination another day. Greece will probably have nukes by the time I tech it. Gah.. I had the same problem with my previous (and failed) game where I got stuck in a war with Greece and his city-state friends. I could get past the early initial DOW as long as it's one civ, but then I get stuck with a stronger one. In emperor if you conquer one civ you're pretty much set. Obviously not in immortal though.

I would not try to get a diplomatic victory, Alexander will steal all your CSs. Plus you need peace with him in order to steal his CSs and he may not accept it. I know that in G&K the AI is really stubborn when ending a war, and in most cases he will demand some cities from you.

You're absolutely right. He will probably never ever give me a peace deal (or at least a fair one). I could try to go for a naval invasion of China, then England. I might actually try that. Could I build up a navy from a single (and crappy) coastal city? I'd have to buy all the units then. Like Beetle and you suggest, I might have to go for science. I went Order anyways.

So domination is hard in this case. Oh well oh well, I should be happy with any sort of victory I guess.

 

[Chunkook]

Are there trade routes in G&K? If there are, send a production TR to the crappy city to build those ships faster. If there aren't, just ignore this comment.

 

[Browd]

There are not.

 

[beetle]

Interesting! But he wasn't really coming after me even when my units weren't so visible, which is why I pressed forward. Hmm, maybe he thought I was so pathetic I wasn't even worth his time? I did use my artillery to take Argos - twice. But he kept taking it back so, so easily, so I pulled back.

I have experienced that kind of behavior. I find it frustrating. The best advice I can offer is to take the city using mobile units that can retreat after capturing the city. The city can flip back and forth a number of times. So I pick raze and try and sell a building each cycle. There is a lot of attrition, but even with the AI spam you can outlast them.

 

[melpolo]

Raze the city? I didn't think of that. I didn't think I could outlast them but I could always try. Okay then, thanks for the advice guys!

 

[beetle]

You just need a couple knights or lancers, but you prolly won't be losing units.

 

[Itssoeasy]

Hi,

Jumped back to G&K for fun and since I enjoyed immortal on BNW, that's where I started. But it's extremely hard for me just to survive!
It doesn't seem to matter who the opponents are, they just keep on attacking me. For the first part of the game I found myself building an army for the coming attacks, try to build 3-4 cities (doesn't feel like I can defend more) and keep up in science. It works pretty well till I'm getting attacked, from then it's all about building army, and I can keep one and maybe two AIs away but there are 2 main problems:

1. No peace. No one will sign a peace deal without taking one or more of my cities, not an option since I don't have that many.

2. Just building units makes me totally left behind in science.

I can keep this up till the AIs getting an air force, then I'm out!

Usually goes Tradition and then Honor, I'm not that happy about Honor since that's not my play style, but right now it feels like I don't have an option.

Help please!

 

[Tiber4321]

I'm playing conquest games on G&K Immortal these days. It helps to have a somewhat isolated start, and in certain games, the AI just annihilates you no matter what you do.

In terms of science, you want to build libraries and National College ASAP. You also want to tech to Scientific Theory ASAP which allows early public schools.

I usually try to build an early engineering wonder. Petra is optimal, but Stonehenge, Pyramids or Great Wall are also good. This allows you to produce a GE to rush Leaning Tower or Porcelain Tower.

It helps to play on smaller map sizes.

 

[Tiber4321]

A few more suggestions, you want to complete Liberty. This gives you the early worker, settler, GP and golden age. I would only open Tradition. If you are going for conquest, Honor is a must.

You want faith from your pantheon and you want to found a religion for the extra happiness. With a lot of faith, you can open Rationalism and but 2-3 GS. This helps you catch up in science.

Finally, you might want to avoid playing with some extremely aggressive AI civs at Immortal, Sweden and Huns would be #1 among these.

Someone mentioned that there was patch for G&K which allowed the AIs to buy tons of units with excess gold at higher levels. You will have to wade through these so build an advanced army with maxed out promotions.

 

[Jakobus]

Bribe your neighbors into declaring war on other civs, they won't declare war on you if they're busy fighting someone else. Plus they'll kill off their units and those of other potential enemies. You'll also be able to keep your army fairly small and affordable. On my last game on immortal, I had a total of five units for my five cities and won a CV (not including two scouts and four caravel for exploring).

Even better is bribing one civ to constantly attack city-states. It's cheaper and wins them the hate of the entire world, especially if they capture one. Soon, everyone will denounce them. You can join in on the denouncements, giving a diplomatic boost between you and the other civs. Before you know it, the whole world will be on your side (you may even get a few DOF's out of the deal).

 

[Itssoeasy]

Thanks for your input.

In my recent game I was playing as Sweden, continents map ending up with Russia and China, found myself in a great desert/flood plain location in a corner. Managed to get a religion and Petra. So no happiness/faith problems. Had a DOF with Russia and got attacked by China, and that was no really problem, but when Russia backedstabbed me, then it was all lost.

Will go with the liberty tree now and try again.

About the bribery thing, I've tried that too, and it works ok. Bribed Russia to attack China, but the war was a stalemate and ended in peace. Good thing about bribing them to attack a CS, must try that!

What map types are you playing? I'm not into the watery types, usually play continents or pangea.

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Two help with immortal game threads merged.