Help with odd start

[Deonnim]

I decided to start a random leader on Small and Medium at Noble.

I landed with Asoka, and here is the start that I got.

Spoiler :

I am trying to figure out if I should SiP or move my Settler to where the Warrior is and settle there. Also, any advice on first builds/techs to take would be awesome. I'm tempted to build a Worker/WB/Warrior/Worker/Settler, tech Agr+Fishing, but there is also AH which begs the question though, can I get down to those Sheep or am I borked? If anyone could give me advice on this, it would be great.

Spoiler :

I know a few things about this map that I should by making the WB save, and it's actually the reason I came to the boards so early. I think I am going to need help in the beginning, because it looks like if I make too many mistakes, I won't be able to win this.

WB save is here, it's sort of borked because I don't know what I'm doing yet, but I uploaded it anyhow. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W22K1RPW

 

[coanda]

I struggle a bit with coastal starts, so take my advice here with a grain of salt. Perhaps sea-salt.

That said... I would settle in place; I prefer that site to the northern option. I'd probably go Fishing -> BW -> AGR -> Pottery, and worker -> work boat -> work boat -> settler -> worker/work boat -> warrior. That seems like the approach which gets you through the initial bottleneck (two starting techs that are nearly-useless in the immediate future, and limited production potential until you can start using slavery) and growing as fast as possible. You can get away with not building warrior to escort your settler provided you keep your initial warrior alive, because the narrow layout of the land makes it possible for him to simultaneous protect the capital through barb-busting and escort your settler north. Odds are very good that the first settler you produce will have a good city site available which uses the fish you pass up for the capital by SIP.

 

[learner gamer]

FWIW, I’d move and settle where your warrior is without any hesitation. You won’t be able to access those sheep for a while (possibly until you tech AH and sailing, and build a galley), so leave them for another city – perhaps on the landmass they’re on. By contrast, moving nets you a stellar site allowing early access to all its resources. IMHO, its agri > fishing > BW to open. Initial builds look like being worker > WB > warrior. From there it depends on the map.

 

[vranasm]

sip looks fine you get there the PH's for quick work boats.

I would quickly test if the land is land connected if not you will need sailing asap.

problem with worker first is wasted worker turns, but leads you to 6 yield tile early.

I don't remember the starting techs for india (is it myst+mining?). Agr and Fishing are both needed asap. The question is the order.
Early clams (and lakes after fishing) net you more commerce and could speed up aggri.

Maybe could be interesting variant with war/rax first with fishing, then switch to WB and build it on PH. settle clams. grow to size 2 and work clams+PH for another WB, basically delaying worker until you get to BW and whip it from size 3/4.

I wouldn't bother with the sheep much because of all the other tiles you have.

Btw early sailing for this cap will be killer... early LH will net you some interesting options for food tiles

 

[learner gamer]

@vranasm: You’re absolutely spot on as usual, the order is key. IIRC though, going agri > fishing will still allow the second build (after worker first) to be a WB for the commerce and growth. Worker meanwhile can farm the corn and mine the one hill whilst BW is being teched and then chop the forested hill and / or spices to avoid any idle worker turns. BTW, good to hear that you’re well again and making vids.

 

[ben-jammin]

I would settle in place, agriculture -> bronze working (you start with mining, no?), fishing -> sailing

Reason being that although the clams are higher yield than the corn overall, getting your worker and bronze working first means you can chop your workboat and warrior(s) to mine the hill and farm the spices. First settler gets whipped. Slower for the first 25 turns maybe but ahead by turn 40 IMO. Few if any worker turns wasted.

@vranasm: You’re absolutely spot on as usual, the order is key. IIRC though, going agri > fishing will still allow the second build (after worker first) to be a WB for the commerce and growth. Worker meanwhile can farm the corn and mine the one hill whilst BW is being teched and then chop the forested hill and / or spices to avoid any idle worker turns. BTW, good to hear that you’re well again and making vids.

There is no hill that can be mined before BW here.

 

[learner gamer]

There is no hill that can be mined before BW here.

Yes there is...2N of the warrior, which will be in the capital's BFC if the settler moves.

EDIT: You do raise an interesting point about the spices though. If Deonnim goes worker first, the spices (rather than the corn) will be the tile worked once borders pop. The extra commerce from that tile will also reduce any idle worker turns whilst teching BW after fishing. With turns lost to movement on the hill from the corn and then down to the spices or other hill for chopping post BW, I'll be surprised if there are many idle worker turns, if any at all.

 

[Deonnim]

Thank you for all your replies, I got a moment to play this and now that I have my first Settler out, I need to pause and consider my options since they are limited.

Spoiler :

I SiP and built a worker first. Ag => BW => Fish => 2 turns from Sailing. After my Worker popped out, I built another Warrior so I could grow, then started on a Settler til Fishing was in. Chopped a forest into the Settler by accident, and then switched over to WB. Chopped a forest into WB by accident and then whipped it out, with the overflow going into my Settler. So basically it all evened out.

Turn 5: I met Catherine of Russia, her borders are VERY close to mine in the NW.
Turn 10: I met Elizabeth of England, her borders are just as close to the NE.

So, now that I have a Settler, I need to decide where to grab land next, because this is going to be bad. It looks like I'm on a smallish island with the two ladies, and land is going to be a very contested commodity. Thankfully, I did pop Copper really close to my cap (had I moved my Settler to where I was thinking, it would have been in my BFC. FML)

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I know the game wants me to grab the spot to the NW of the Copper, but I'm thinking somewhere near the Corn and Pig so I can at least have some land there from Cathering and Elizabeth. Perhaps 1 SE of the Corn?

I feel like a noob asking all these questions, but I'm fearful that I'll make a fairly big mistake early on and not catch it until later in the game if at all, thus wasting hours of play time and possibly not learning. I think once I get past the initial stage on this, I should be alright.

Also, it looks like an early rush might be in order? Against either Eliz or Cath, or both, to try and grab as much land as possible. What do y'all think?

 

[cbucks]

I'd settle where your warrior is. You would have to run the worker around to the sheep (assuming it is connected to your landmass). If you move to the warrior, you are assured of being able to work all the resources in the BFC.

 

[Ghpstage]

While the island you are on doesn't appear to have lots of land, you do have several islands to the south. Settle those and The Great Lighthouse will practically win this game by itself.
Rushing would be possible, but it seems a long distance for your troops to travel. If you decide to rush you want the copper for the second city, if not then grab that pig/corn site.

 

[learner gamer]

IMHO, Ghpstage has covered the choices very well. Rushing means city #2 likely goes 1E of the fish IMHO, then you just whip axes. Before you do decide to rush however, perhaps check / zoom right in to see if you can tell whether either London or Moscow is on a hill. Maybe even OB if you can get to writing. If you do rush (which would be my choice FWIW), also have a worker build a road to your victim, I mean neighbour , to speed up troop movement.

 

[coanda]

If you decide to rush, I'd aim for Cathy and make my third city a blocking city to cut Elizabeth off from the rest of the continent if you can. It'd be a bit tricky to pull off though - you've got fairly limited production, and you'd only have 3 forests to chop to speed your axe-building up.

 

[A_Hamster]

If you rush, rush Cathy: she can't be trusted. Lizzy is pretty reliable. In a similar position I like killing the treacherous AIs early, before they tech up and become major problems.

 

[Fibonacci1123]

+1 to rushing Cathy. An important point to consider is what the AI you don't rush is going to do. If you rush Liz, Cathy will grab every city site on your continent. However, Liz doesn't usually expand too fast.

 

[Deonnim]

So I give up on this map. I played through peacefully the first time, and Cathy choked me out of land and it was just a total mess, that's what I get for trying to peacefully expand next to a Creative leader. After beating the current NC, I picked this up again from the beginning, and settled where my Warrior was. Everything went VERY well, I wiped out both Cathy and Liz fairly early, grabbed all the good spots, and proceeded to tech my way through to Astronomy.

I met Gilgamesh, which was my first enemy from the other continent, and he hated me for trading with his worst enemy even though we knew no one in common. Which frustrated me, because I couldn't get OB off of him for a while. I met the rest of the backwards continent, the Vikings and French only had 2 or 3 cities each, it was quite amusing.

Everything went well, I continued teching along, planning on killing them with a Marine invasion (bad idea). I finally got to where i needed to be in the 1800s, declared war on Gilg and his passal Ragnar, bribed the Chinese to war with the Louie and Gilgamesh. Started trouncing on Gilgamesh slowly, even though I didn't have much of a gigantic army tech lead, and I get a message to vote for Diplomatic Victory for the AP, the only choice, Louis...I declined to vote, a few turns later, he wins the game. FML...Gilgamesh and Ragnar voted for him, which was JUST enough votes to get him to win.

I rage quit after that considering it was late at night, I most likely will not be playing this game again. But I have learned a few things over the past few games, I need serious help with with path I go for tech. I tend to want everything, and I end up wasting time. This past game I had such a tech lead, that I really wasn't able to trade for much, but I traded for what I could. Are there articles that will help me decide how to tech better?

 

[coanda]

For future reference - espionage is a great way of preventing AI diplomatic victories. Use it for force the AIs to change religions or change civics so they don't like each other as much, and then they won't be voting for each other. By the Modern Age the cost of those operations is tiny relative to your economic power.

 

[Deonnim]

@coanda

I actually had my Espionage up at 100% for like 6 or 7 turns as a rotation so I could gain a bunch of points real quick and see everyone's land. I wasn't paying attention to what Louis was building. And at one point I had actually got everyone to change their civics around with diplomacy to screw up their tech rate and give me a few extra turns to play with.

But regarding the little love triangle over on that continent. I should have attacked much sooner than I did. France at once point peace vassalled to Gilgamesh and then once he broke free he started building up cities. Also, when I met the continent, everyone over there was under Buddhism, except for China who was Confucian, and I was Hindu. I was waiting for the religion to spread across the oceans, but I think I screwed up there as well. They never researched the proper techs for that to happen, which proves I still have more to learn.

All in all, I guess I will chalk this up to a learning experience and go from there. Thank you to everyone for the tips in the beginning, had I not screwed up in the middle, and gotten complacent, I may have actually won this.

 

[Blitzrr]

I'd say it's good to have a habit to settle aggressively towards the AI and take it out before 1000AD. The way it will work is that you will gain a hammer advantage by settling the cities and take out the creative leader before she can really culture push you. There's not much the AI can do against this strategy, as the only way the AI can beat the human is to be bigger than the human but that is usually easy to prevent on noble.

The way I'd have done it was beeline to the 1NE of pig site, then settle for the copper near the fish. If Cathy was settling slow, I would have even tried to claim the gold, after all there's food and production in that area and the gold would let you handle the maintenance costs. Settling those sites would have been good enough to outproduce Cathy and whether or not you'd have gotten the gold would have decided whether you go for early war or slightly less early war.

I've very rarely had mindless REX and conquest fail on Noble. You can come back from the economic deficit with such ease, too.

 

[Ghpstage]

I played through peacefully the first time, and Cathy choked me out of land and it was just a total mess, that's what I get for trying to peacefully expand next to a Creative leader.

Have you kept saves of this playthrough, particularly any around 1AD that you could post? You shouldn't have much difficulties getting at least 6 cities here, with far more available on the islands to the south!

 

[Deonnim]

I just got home to check, and no, I don't have a save past 2750BC when my first Settler popped out. I could play through a bit and see what I can do by REXing real quick to get to 1 AD. Shouldn't take too long, and I'll post SS once I'm done.


Edit: So I played this to 410 BC, managed to found 5 cities on the continent, 1 to hte island to the south. I am feeling pressure from Cathy, she has 5 cities on the continent and is founding another 1 on an island. My tech choices may not have been the best, and I probably could have been running the slider higher had I been paying attention. My biggest gripe with this map is this poor production I am getting from my cities. I settled the one to block off Cathy, and that has close to NO production at all. There are a few others that have a few hammers, but I feel like that placement of my first city just set a precedent for me that wasn't good. I was happy with the majority of my game play when I restarted, until the love triangle decided to shaft me and get the AP cheese victory. Lesson learned, keep a closer eye on what is going on with your "friends" and don't develop tunnel vision. I'm off to try my hand at another game and see if I can improve my game play.

Here is the save file @410BC if anyone wants to take a look. http://www.mediafire.com/?fz9998micjrxpbx