help with the Chasqui Scout!

[Ision]

okay folks, I have tried and tried - but have been unable to use this unit in a manner that is both tactically effective and cost efficient. Every scenario I have run with this unit finds that I would have been better off with either plain 10-shield scouts or 20 shield archers.

sure, the 1-1-2 has been nice at times when scouting - but sure as hell not enough to justify the 20 shields.

I have also been unable to make this unit pay off as an ultra early warring unit - functional, but once again - too easily outclassed by common Ancient Age units to justify the 20 shields?

has Ision missed something here? I am at a loss on this one -

Ision

 

[SirPleb]

I don't get it either. When I've tried them I find it frustrating that I can't build regular scouts. Two regular scouts at 10s apiece seem far more useful for scouting than 1 Chasqui at 20s. And 20s is too much for a 1-1-2 warring unit. The ability to get through mountains quickly is occasionally nice but not worth the price. They'd perhaps be worthwhile if available to a non-expansionist Civ at this price.

It is especially a shame because the Incas have what would otherwise be a very nice combination of traits. But this modified scout seems to me to actually reduce the value of their expansionist trait.

I wonder if this unit was conceived primarily in the context of a scenario where the Incas have a lot of nearby mountains, and perhaps raging barbs at the same time?

 

[Ozymandous]

Try playing on a world that's 3 billion years old with > 30% mountains and hills and you'll rapidly see the benefit of these units.

They cost twice as much but nothing beats using mountains and hills as roads...

 

[wilbill]

They certainly seem to have been designed by a committee, don't they? They don't serve either of their purposes better than the units they replace, but cost twice as much as either.

 

[Ision]

I am so glad to see these negative responses about the CS -lol-

I was begining to think I had lost my touch.

Ision

 

[lord42]

Hmmm an offesively equal archer with 3 movement regardless of terrain? How is that not usefull? Try building about 15 and you can rampage the ai's terrain and steal it's workers. If they don't have spearmen yet you can even kill them!

 

[JustBen]

A better player than me observed that the CS should not be studied in a vacuum but considered in the context of the civ traits. Being Expansionist and Agricultural makes for a pretty explosive start -- even moreso than the Gringos. The +1 food you [should] have is pretty amazing, and it may be that being able to crank out 10-shield scouts just turned out to be too strong.

And they do have cool benefits. I like how I don't lose a scout just because I found a barbarian after my second move. Moving through hills faster isn't all that, but it's handy when you can make it work.

Sometimes a civ is intentionally given a weak unit, like the F-15 or the Musketeer, to compensate for especially good traits.

That said, it does seem like the game would remain playable if the cost were lowered to 15.

 

[Ision]

"Sometimes a civ is intentionally given a weak unit, like the F-15 or the Musketeer, to compensate for especially good traits."

This was often the speculation on the F-15, but personally I don't believe it. It appears that the unit was simply poorly concieved. The benefits (vs Barbs) JustBen mentioned are accurate - nevertheless, the unit would still be among the absolute worse of all the UUs. I cannot believe that the +1 food of AGR trait combined with EXP trait was the rationale behind a weaker UU.

I still have hope for this UU - C3C is still new, perhaps we have not exhausted all the strats with this UU - we have all come accross strat articles months after a game is released and been pleasantly surprised.

Ision

 

[Zardnaar]

Its limited. I've used them to round up workes or to hit an early city with no defenders. Unfortionatly AI cities with no defenders are few and far between espicially with the higher difficulty levels.

As for having strong traits compare to say the Maya and its UU and its weak at best. Not quite up there with conquistidors though. They do scout better than a normal scout. Not 20 shields worth though.

 

[Park Ranger]

I've tried the Inca as well and found scouting/expansionism to be frustrating. By the time you get 2-3 scouts going AI has scooped all the goody huts.

What if cost was 15 shields?

 

[jm chen]

Originally posted by SirPleb
I wonder if this unit was conceived primarily in the context of a scenario where the Incas have a lot of nearby mountains, and perhaps raging barbs at the same time?

That seems to describe their position in the Mesoamerican scenario pretty well. The Incas are all up and down the Pacific coast of South America, mostly mountains and jungle. I leave a few scouts wandering around the barby areas. They have enslavement in this scenario, netting me lots of free workers who can be used for either labor or culture. If you move them up north quickly enough (and they do move quickly) you can even block other major civs from getting onto the South American continent at all.

I like 'em. I just think they look really girly. I mean, pink? With skirts?

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by jm chen
They have enslavement in this scenario

With enslavement they'd sure be a powerful unit. But even then for scouting purposes as an expansionist Civ, I'd still want the option of building regular 10 shield scouts as well

 

[dreamvirus]

Don't forget the fact that Chasqui Scouts upgrade to...Explorers! The most useful unit in the game, good for...hmm...pillaging?

I did manage to find a use for my useless Chasquis in a Deity game with the Incas though. I didn't use any of them for fighting early on but saved up a stack until the mid-industrial ages and triggered myself a late Golden Age by attacking a redlined rifleman. I also managed to take a city with a Chasqui Scout! The city was 2 squares into enemy territory so I needed fast units and I'd used up all my available cavalry. I was going to make peace that turn and desperately needed to retake that city first. So I sent in my last 2 Chasqui scouts at the 1hp elite rifleman that was left in the city. The first one died horribly. The second one brought glory!

Having said that, I agree that this has to be one of the worst UUs in the game.

 

[llebsirhc]

I'm at the point where I keep trying new civs in order to find which one suits my playing style best. Invariably, I come back to the Incas. I'm not sure why, but I have had some of my best games ever with them. That being said, I never really thought about the good vs. bad of the chasqui scout. I just used it as a scout/warrior and the shield cost never occurred to me.

I guess after reading the opinions of everyone here, I'm disappointed in the chasqui scout. However, I think it's still great on huge maps to uncover land quickly. Plus, if you run across an American scout (or any other scout for that matter), you can kill it and the AI probably won't build another to replace it. That becomes a help when you want to get more goody huts than everyone else. Plus, you can't kill with a regular scout, so I guess the chasqui has some benefits.

I'll keep using them and maybe sometime in the future they'll be balanced out more and make them more attractive to other players as well.

 

[kb2tvl]

Try raging barbarians and a younger planet that is dry and a panagea.

 

[HalfBadger]

I haven't gotten around to using the Incans yet, but it seems that many are scrounging up reasons how the CS could potentially be good. Almost in a desperate plea to convince ppl it's not one of the worst UU. No offense to anyone, but thats when you know the UU is bad, when it takes a couple sentences to explain the very specific scenerio it's decent at.

 

[Point13]

I feel they should give the Jaguar Warrior and Chasqui scout enslavement because all of these 3 cultures (Inca, Maya, Aztecs respectively) sacrificed prisonors (sp) (Aztecs especially) this would justify their relative weakness and cost so they could enslave enemy units they can kill (Barbarians namely)

 

[warpstorm]

While that might be okay for the CS, for the Jag it would make it too good for the price.

 

[Gogf]

Originally posted by lord42
Hmmm an offesively equal archer with 3 movement regardless of terrain? How is that not usefull? Try building about 15 and you can rampage the ai's terrain and steal it's workers. If they don't have spearmen yet you can even kill them!

That sounds great, however that is not the Chasquis Scout. The Chasquis Scout is a 1.1.2, ignore movement penalty for hills and mountains, nothing like what you talk about.

 

[showoffsg]

Originally posted by jm chen

I like 'em. I just think they look really girly. I mean, pink? With skirts?

i agree, they should be purple.

I don't mind the CS as much as I do the Egyptian Chariot, by the time you get any number of them out the AI has spearmen and they're completely useless with only 1 attack