Hermetic Lore for FFH DI5

[zbelg]

Joint Quest Writeup

Spoiler :

Matters in Aerie were reaching a head. In the city, the sages were debating on what ways to research first: that of wisdom, or that of corruption? For the moment, it was corruption that was winning, due to the seductive rewards that it offered. However, it was not hopeless, as many of the populace still belived in the value of compassion, honor, and justice.

And so it was to tip the scales in favor of the latter that Sirona came to Lugus, openly and without concealment.

"I have come to talk about matters regarding the Dragon Cult," spoke Sirona. While such bluntness wasn't her usual mode of speech, the Goddess new that the Precept of the Sun cared not for tact, merely truth. It had in fact been that tactless honesty that had done in Lugus' followers in the Age of Magic, as they had few allies in that time.* But now, the world was most accepting of the truth, at least for now.

She waited for Lugus to give his reply.

Sounds good to me. You're posting this on the next godturn, right? If you're posting it this turn, I'll write a response, but if it's next turn, I'm going to wait to see what Veridian does this time around.

I plan on teleporting the Bannor settler and 2 warriors to a southern city location so they actually build a 2nd city!!

The Bannor built a second city without problems on my test run.

 

[Bad Player]

A reward for killing barbarians could work.
Might be easier if you created a barbarian close to the Kuriotates for Verdian to deal with specifically, apart from the general get rid of the barbarians request.

If nations go to war you'd have to assume that most kills were associated with that, rather than killing barbarians. I think you're creating a lot of book keeping work for yourself with the approach you're planning. Verdian can let you know what barbarians he kills. Just do a guess for the other civilizations.

Where do the Clan of Embers fit in with this quest? Does Junil regard them as barbarian?

I want to make it a quest for everyone not just the Kuriotates though... Even if there was a way to know who destroyed a lair/goblin fort I could work with that...

I thought that the Clan of Embers wouldn't fight barbarians and therefore would miss out on my reward for barbarian killing - an indirect penalty on the Clan.

I was making the mistake of wondering how to get the AI to play according to script when I first suggested the Mega Plot. The AI is just going to do it's thing.
I think the answer here is that you gift a warrior to the Bannor. How many of the other civs were you thinking would go along with Junil's suggestions. If it's not too many, a similar gift could be made. Just remember that balance needs to be maintained, so don't be excessive, otherwise it will end up as a gift giving arms race.

I agree - I don't like favoritism gift giving which is why I wanted to influence AI behaviour.

As I was saying, don't trust the AI.R Plop a city down where you think it should be built and teleport the warriors in. Kill the settler (it founded the city).

I will do this.

 

[Lplate]

I thought that the Clan of Embers wouldn't fight barbarians and therefore would miss out on my reward for barbarian killing - an indirect penalty on the Clan.

I was more wondering if Junil regarded the CoE as barbarian and would extend his directive to bringing law and order to the world to include eradicating the CoE.

I don't like favoritism gift giving which is why I wanted to influence AI behaviour.

We're only Gods. A bit of give and take every 50 turns is all we have. Changing AI behaviour is more the province of a mod/scenario.
(I'm still worried that the back-stabbing, under-handed element of the start of the Mega Plot war will be undermined by the AI openly declaring war before I trigger it.)

 

[Bad Player]

So any ideas on how to implement my barbarian killing quest for everyone?

 

[Lplate]

So any ideas on how to implement my barbarian killing quest for everyone?

I don't see how you can get any of the AI civs to actually kill more barbarians than they would anyway.

Some civs would choose to reject any offers from Junil but still kill some barbarians anyway, e.g. I don't see the Balseraphs as being the civ to encourage order in the world.

You can distribute Junil's rewards among civs by doing the analysis that you described above or the guesstimate that I suggested. You might consider that the Clan of Embers might take a dim view of nations that they've met that are actively hunting their barbarian brethren. You could have the CoE give a diplomatic malus to those nations, whose units gain a benefit from Junil's quest.

---

Regarding the CoE, one thing we'll have to consider is that their world spell won't give them as many units as it usually does, seeing as the Gods have placed non-Orc barbarians on the map. If Verdian notices it being cast, we should give them extra units to reflect those that would normally be there.

 

[Derf]

There aren't actually that many non-orc barbs. The two Hellhounds I placed don't have any racial promotion (Checked that to verify - they might be demons, but they don't get the Demon racial) and the held Angels are, well, angelic. I don't recall offhand any other barbs that have been placed, so but for those that the various civs have slain, the CoE worldspell shouldn't really be all that different to usual.

However, that said, perhaps it's worth us keeping an eye on the CoE in any test runs we do to see what happens when they do finally cast it - if they do end up short of units, I don't have a problem with supplementing their numbers.

On the intervention following the Clan's worldspell though, I plan to place a smattering of small Clan cities, none of them above size 2 but all with a pagan temple in. Going to have to look through the various buildings to find out if there's anything suitable, as I also plan on using a building with negative effects if there is one so that the Clan's sudden supply of cities isn't too overly OP'ed.
The idea behind it being that some of the Orcs they get are going to have sympathies for the Clan, and some of the local tribes and clans will convert their settlement to work for the Clan. The nerfing, if I can work it in, is there to represent inter-clan rivalries and other such inconveniences.

Of course if someone takes over Bhall between now and then, they're welcome to tell me to leave the Clan alone and steal my idea for themselves. I'm doing it because there's no Bhall yet, and because it means more potential warfare.

 

[Elder Methyl]

Sounds good to me. You're posting this on the next godturn, right? If you're posting it this turn, I'll write a response, but if it's next turn, I'm going to wait to see what Veridian does this time around.

Yes, I'm posting it on the next turn. Anyway, I'm back for one hour, due to matters relating to my online course.

 

[Bad Player]

Should I wait for you to post your save game, Elder Methyl, before I collect it and do my things?

 

[Bad Player]

Barbarian Killing Quest:
- Units with XP >= 10 get the Orc slaying promotion (so this doesn't really benefit the Clan of Embers)
- I'll guess who destroys any goblin forts/lairs/dungeons and give some kind of bonus to the nation (since I won't know the individual unit).



Prepare the Armies of Good for War Quest:
- Still not sure about this. I don't like the idea of just outright favouring good nations and giving them units (and one warrior is neither here nor there).

 

[Bad Player]

Barbarian Killing Quest:
- Units with XP >= 10 get the Orc slaying promotion (so this doesn't really benefit the Clan of Embers)
- I'll guess who destroys any goblin forts/lairs/dungeons and give some kind of bonus to the nation (since I won't know the individual unit).



Prepare the Armies of Good for War Quest:
- Still not sure about this. I don't like the idea of just outright favouring good nations and giving them units (and one warrior is neither here nor there).

 

[Lplate]

Should I wait for you to post your save game, Elder Methyl, before I collect it and do my things?

Elder Methyl's edits for the current turn (Swanmay Isle) are already included in the save. Go ahead and take your save to do the edits.

Barbarian Killing Quest:
- Units with XP >= 10 get the Orc slaying promotion (so this doesn't really benefit the Clan of Embers)
- I'll guess who destroys any goblin forts/lairs/dungeons and give some kind of bonus to the nation (since I won't know the individual unit).

The Orc Slaying promotion sounds like a good anti-barbarian option.
Are you giving it to every unit with more than 10 xp, every melee unit with more than 10 xp (rem arcane units are just wracking up xp for staying home) or just the melee unit with the highest xp (at least 10) in each Civilization. Is the quest for Verdian to have a unit gain the 10 xp by ridding the land of barbarians? If so, then I'd go back to the suggestion to place barbarian(s) on the map for Verdian to hunt down.

Prepare the Armies of Good for War Quest:
- Still not sure about this. I don't like the idea of just outright favouring good nations and giving them units (and one warrior is neither here nor there).

1 unit is just a representationof the AI civs following Junil's instruction to "start" building up their army for the coming war. On the following God turns, you could add further units as they continue their war preparations.

Quest for Verdian could be something along the lines of build at least x units to fight in the armies of good and I (Junil) will send one of my chosen to lead them into battle. Whenever it's a God turn and Verdian has the required number of units (and is not Evil), give him a great commander.

---
@ryansee,
Do you know what God you'd like to take and what edits you'd like made to the save game?
Do you need more info on the current status of anything (locations, civs, etc) in the game to help you plan your intervention?

 

[Elder Methyl]

I'm sorry to say this, but I'm going to have to uninstall Civ4. You see, my laptop keeps overheating every few minutes when I play it, and I'm afraid that it might be permanently busted if I keep doing so.

 

[Bad Player]

Here is my save - I used the Bannor settler to make a city and gave 1 warrior to each good civ.

Could someone add barbarian warriors (or whatever) around the map please (are you meant to remove orc promotions from them?)

 

[Lplate]

Here is my save - I used the Bannor settler to make a city and gave 1 warrior to each good civ.

Did you give a warrior to Verdian as well? There's a new warrior SW of Aerie.

Edit: I just did two test games.

I added goblin (recon) and goblin archer in the goblin fort on the south coast and a barbarian (orc) warrior in the fort to the north of Aerie. I played up to turn 70 and there were no issues with crashes, even though all of these added units had the orc promotion.

The Kuriotates got a great sage both times, which suits if the Ceridwen settler is used to found a city.

---

There's already an orc warrior wandering around to the north of the Kuriotates and there's an archer and scout in the goblin fort to the south. There seem to be other barbarians scattered across the map also. It might not be necessary to add extra barbarian units.

 

[Bad Player]

I actually wanted barbarians around the map for everyone to kill but there are probably wild ones spawning anyway.

Yeah, I gave a warrior to Kuriotates as well as other good civs.

 

[Lplate]

I put Bad-Player's save on the story thread. Let Verdian know if you need to do a further save before he starts his turn tomorrow.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

IN

-

So, I've only glanced through to get a feeling for what the gods are doing, the first page was never really updated ;

• Esus seems to be planting a million and one chekov guns to be fired off as needed,
• Dagda is balancing and putting down interesting set pieces
• Camulos is hinting at escaped prisoners and setting up the Clan as a revolving door for barbarian cities who dive in and out of Civility. Goes without saying he's encouraging war in most ways.
• Junil is setting for an Axis of good, also encouraging lawful nations to do away with barbarity and chaotic influences.
• Sirona is re-acting to whatever the evil gods do and encouraging her own good gods but not setting up any individual plans just yet.
• Lugus is reacting the most to Sirona's help and is pushing truthful visions on nations that might do good with the information. Also setting up inevitable Vampire conflict.
• Ceridwen is doing the usual inevitable doom spiel quite well, pushing for magic but no long term stuff that I spotted.

Meanwhile lots of the neutral gods have gone quiet in Danalin, Kilmorph and Arawn, along with the evil god Mammon.

-

Camulos is already taken so I guess I'm looking at either Agares or Cernunnos. I could have a lot of fun with Agares, but I don't want to upset the alignment balance, so Cernunnos might be best. I havn't installed the Magister Mod yet so I'm going off the thread information, but the Summer Elves seem to be absent here, So has Esus laid down any claim to the Svartalfar? I also thought that the Centaurs could be part of the Nature sphere but havn't looked into the lore of that. Either way I can fall back on the fawn/Treant standard.

As for what I'd probably do, I'd peg Cernunnos as the ultimate reactive god. With the last god of nature falling from what can be summed up as Divine Meddling he will lash out at both good and evil gods for interfering in the world and encourage men to deal with their own problems.

Anyway before planning anything in depth I figured I'd get all the other gods perspectives on whether Cernunnos is the way to go and any major plots I should be known aware of. Thankfully I don't have to do anything until the current turn has been played.

 

[apenpaap]

Well, as might be expected I would like Agares best. But your plan for Cernunnos sounds good; though it might perhaps be more Dagda's kind of thing, while Cernunnos would focus on spreading nature as far as possible and combating civilisation's spread (except civs that leave forests alone; so that's both elf civs and the Kurios). But that seems more of an early focus, once civilisation is spread it does seem likely Cernunnos would indeed be a bit Cassiel-like.

 

[Bad Player]

There are more good civs than evil so I'd be fine with more evil gods than hood.

 

[Lplate]

[*]Esus seems to be planting a million and one chekov guns to be fired off as needed

Meanwhile lots of the neutral gods have gone quiet in Danalin, Kilmorph and Arawn, along with the evil god Mammon.

the Summer Elves seem to be absent here, So has Esus laid down any claim to the Svartalfar? I also thought that the Centaurs could be part of the Nature sphere but havn't looked into the lore of that. Either way I can fall back on the fawn/Treant standard.

As for what I'd probably do, I'd peg Cernunnos as the ultimate reactive god. With the last god of nature falling from what can be summed up as Divine Meddling he will lash out at both good and evil gods for interfering in the world and encourage men to deal with their own problems.

Anyway before planning anything in depth I figured I'd get all the other gods perspectives on whether Cernunnos is the way to go and any major plots I should be known aware of. Thankfully I don't have to do anything until the current turn has been played.

Hadn't heard of Chekhov guns before. You're right, I'm planting lots of Chekhov guns and red herrings. Hopefully, Verdian won't go so far off script that I can't fire those guns.

It would be great to have Cernunnos in the game. There's a serious lack of active neutral Gods. I think your interpretation of Cernunnos is fine. I'm not sure how you'll implement that within the DI game (but that's half the fun).

You're welcome to claim the Svartalfar. I plan to show how Esus is active in lots of different ways in all of the realms of Erebus through the Flavour stories. I was buffing up the Svartalfar for the time being but did not have a specific plan for them. It suits me if the Svartalfar go with FoL and Esus is just a (strong) undercurrent. I could always look at the Sidar if I need CoE developed and no CIV is doing it, seeing as we no longer have Randomness doing Laroth/Gyra.

Plots
As regards plots/story lines, these are the main Esus ones and a few possible ideas;

Spoiler :

Mega Plot
Dead hero returns from hell and convinces people that they are in Shadowfel. He (mis)leads an army into hell, triggering a war on the way. (Verdian may choose to get involved in the war). Archangel Iaegus arrives at BW, stopping others from leaving through it. Suicide and murder rates skyrocket across the continent in aftermath as people believe they are in hell (Verdian may want to take measures to protect his people).

Follow on stories from the Mega Plot for the other Gods & Esus:

Spoiler :

The War:
Most likely countries for the war are Amurite and Calabim. Camulos may push other countries to get involved once it starts. Lugus is already pushing for war on the Calabim.

Redeeming Bradeline's Well:
Archangel Iaegus appears to be protecting Bradeline's Well as part of the Mega Plot. Sirona may give quest to redeem/bless Bradeline's Well but this will require removal of Iaegus (which will seem to be a strong unit). Lugus can give mission/vision to reveal that "Iaegus" is just a Sceadugengan which is a much easier unit to defeat, allowing completion of the Sirona mission.

Let's Destroy Hell:
Ceridwen and Esus may trick people into trying to bring about Armageddon as the way to escape from hell.

Let's Bring Back God:
A CIV which has heard that the compact was broken by the entry of Iaegus into the world tries to find the ritual for summoning a God into Erebus either to actually do it or stop others doing it. Word of this spreads and others may try to stop them.

Let's Stop God:
Elohim fearing that someone is going to bring back a God to Erebus, go looking for the Godslayer.

WMD
Elohim/others realise the connection between the Dragon Cult and the Kuriotates and fearing the reintroduction of these WMD, decide to act preemptively.

International Distrust Plot
1. First step was to build a palisade as a barrier between the Kuriotates and the other civs.
2. Next step will be the Spymaster quest. Either become sneaky and spy or those who do will have an advantage over you.
3. When more than one nation has Poisons, a Brotherhood of assassins will offer their services globally - free hidden nationality assassin for all civs who accept the brotherhood.

Racial Distrust Plot
Mainly just rumours with no follow up stories unless Verdian reacts
1. Rumour: Foreign Market has centaur hide clothing for sale. People are paying high prices for them. The trader is actually lying about the goods. May develop this with a Kuriotates tailor who later tries to do it for real.
2. Musteval claims Lamia are experimenting on other races to develop Alteration magic and then he becomes the latest person to go missing.
3. Human claims centaurs are being allotted a disproportionate amount of land.

Religious Distrust
1. Confessor will kill a Witness as soon as he starts preaching. A statue of Esus is subsequently found in his room. The person who found it is asked to keep quiet.

Stealing Souls:
I'd also suggested that Esus might try stealing souls from the other hells, triggering a religious war of AV against CoE. That would be far down the line though if it's going to happen.