High Production Low Commerce Start

[pmarc]

You can get CoL and preserve the Astro bulb by avoiding Meditation, but whether you should do so is another question... It's unlikely to be useful with a CRE leader when you have cheap libraries and can easily reach ocean seafood.

I'm curious about the situations where you'd want the Great Library in isolation, even with marble. It just seems like a lot of techs to make it work if you didn't need them otherwise.

Great Lighthouse and Mids are the best wonders in isolation by a large margin. Colossus is bad because Astro obsoletes it. If you are IND with cheap forges it is a decent failgold option.

 

[Izuul]

It probably depends how much fail gold you can get from the other wonders. That can potentially finance a lot of your teching towards Optics, but I'm guessing that the Emperor AI probably build Parthenon and SoZ very late so it might not pay off. TGL itself is really powerful though and Lit also allows you to build the national epic in the same city with it. TGL + NE = 30 GPP per turn while running two scientists. You do introduce a very small chance of getting Great Artists instead of Great Scientists, but you can probably crank out 4 great people before you need to bulb Astro so even getting 1 Great Artist wouldn't be a disaster - just save it for a golden age later.

 

[pmarc]

Played to 425 BC (T98). Micro was definitely not optimal, got workboats out too slow for new cities, among other things.

Spoiler Turns 1-30 :

Settled in place, figured a 13-turn worker wasn't bad. In hindsight, the N-NW plains hill might be stronger, but I wouldn't have gone that way from the initial scout movement.

Tech path: Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, then Wheel and now on to Pottery.
Worker improved the wheat, then pigs, then a green mine, and now roading towards gold.
Capital grew to size 4 making 2 warriors to fogbust.

Because I found that island scouting to the NE, I want to build the Great Lighthouse (6 in the island city + 3 in every other city). It's a bit awkward because I need to build it in the pigs-gold city where the lighthouse itself is useless.

Spoiler Turns 31-50 :

Techs: Pottery and Bronze Working, now on to Sailing then Masonry for GLH.
Capital trained a worker after the settler, then a few more fog busters (doubling up in the SW because of an archer). The plan for those workers is to chop (next settler) and cottage around the capital, and mine and pre-chop around pigs/gold city (which is also building another worker).

Dot map is for the overall city potential, I definitely wouldn't settle the NW and SW cities before Optics, but the S and SE ones have good commerce. I plan to get the NE fish before the S pigs-gold because of less worker travel, and I want a quick library with that NE fish for GS generation (along with the capital).

 

[Fippy]

Literature value also depends on: how many forests do i have?
Delaying Glib completion for a few turns, while chopping into failgold for it at another city solves the "Emp AIs will never build Parthenon in time" problem
I think that strat always pays off. On deity you might get afraid of losing Glib..but on any difficulty below forests can be turned into gold.
Or maybe it's better on National Epic..but that delays the failgold.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Oh wow. I just tried again, and boy does that GLib make a difference! Even without the Parthenon, and with building an Academy, I had a spare Great Scientist after bulbing Astronomy. T161 (1010AD) is still significantly later than the half-arsed 800AD that sampsa suggested, but it's still a damn sight better than I was getting before.

I'm going to try again and see if I can tighten my play up a bit more. At the very least I won't bother with Colossus next time (I had completely forgotten about it becoming obsolete so quickly because Astronomy is not something I usually research so soon). Thanks again everyone.

Next question is what do I do once I've got Astro?

 

[pmarc]

Spoiler Turns 51-65 :

First two cities have their granary. Capital is slowly finishing settler for city 4 (southern pigs-gold) while working cottages. It didn't whip anything yet, saving it for library.

City 2 built a workboat for city 3, then whipped the lighthouse with overflow into the GLH on the turn Masonry completed. Now worker is finishing chops into the wonder, while the 2 other workers are improving marble for city 3. After that I can afford sending two workers south for city 4.

Spoiler Turns 66-80 :

Two libraries up (whipped in capital, chopped / slow built in Angkor Thom), but not running scientists yet. Great Lighthouse finishing next turn. Capital growing to work all cottages while putting hammers into Pyramids. Angkor Thom will whip lighthouse into a galley to bring the settler for island city (city 2 will build settler). This is delaying my GS a bit, hopefully not too late for Astro. Two workers south improved pigs and gold and will not chop towards granary, workboat and library in that new city, before cottaging.

Spoiler Turns 81-98 :

Looks like 22 turns to Optics (Machinery - Compass - Optics) at my current breakeven rate.

GPP meter shows capital first, but I have been micromanaging it to almost grow to 7 (where it would be unhappy) with 1 scientist, then starve with 2 scientists (not working wheat). I still plan for Angkor Thom to generate the first GS, then capital will run 2 scientists for ~17 turns.

I think I will settle one more city before Optics? That would be the settler being built south, going to SE fish/iron/river spot. Both pigs/gold cities will also build triremes to upgrades to caravels.

I didn't get too much extra production so far besides the Pyramids failgold in capital, every city has a granary and library, two have lighthouses and that's it.

 

[pmarc]

@Gunboat Diplomat

After Astro, Grenadiers/Cannons is a popular plan because Chemistry unlocks Frigates and Military Science unlocks Ship of the Line (anti-Frigate unit, very important to protect your ships at higher difficulty). Two GS can bulb Chemistry as long as you don't research (I think?) Paper because Printing Press gets priority then. Trade as much as possible to get the medieval techs along the way to Gunpowder, plus the useful non-military stuff like Monarchy / Code of Laws / Civil Service.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Thanks for the screenshots and descriptions @pmarc. Very useful! Your dotmap looks almost identical to the one I was using for my first few runs at this map. Glad to know I wasn't making too many blatant errors in city placement.

Spoiler :

It pretty much orphans the sugar, but that's not at all relevant for the early push.

I did put the SE fish/iron city 1S of where you did, and then squeezed another city between that one and the capital (sharing its wheat and using the only FP on the island), plus another one to the East of Angkor Wat (to share the pig). It made sense to me when I was hitting the happy cap and my cities couldn't grow anyway, but I see now that doing that contributed to my overexpansion financial troubles.

The next phase will be another paradigm shift for me. My normal military strategy involves delaying Grenadiers for as long as possible (promoted Maces, upgraded = City Raider II or III Rifles, which just smash cities). Obviously that won't work here.

Another problem I frequently encounter is knowing when I've got enough units for an assault. This is going to be a much bigger problem here because reinforcements will be so much further away. Any advice on how I'll know when I'm ready to attack?

 

[notslin]

First, the capital.

Due to having more river tiles I would like to settle 1NE, however that runs into the risk of orphaning seafood, so scout N-NE should be done first.

Very interesting. I'm usually scared of moving the settler if I could miss out on resources in the fog, since I know capitals often have a lot of resources.

There are three BFC tiles in the fog and they look to be unforested. If I had to guess, maybe one flat grassland and two grassland hills.

Wouldn't there be a good chance that these three tiles could have a resource that you would miss out on in your capital if you move 1NE?

 

[notslin]

Played to 425 BC (T98). Micro was definitely not optimal, got workboats out too slow for new cities, among other things.

Spoiler Turns 1-30 :

Settled in place, figured a 13-turn worker wasn't bad. In hindsight, the N-NW plains hill might be stronger, but I wouldn't have gone that way from the initial scout movement.

Tech path: Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, then Wheel and now on to Pottery.
Worker improved the wheat, then pigs, then a green mine, and now roading towards gold.
Capital grew to size 4 making 2 warriors to fogbust.

Because I found that island scouting to the NE, I want to build the Great Lighthouse (6 in the island city + 3 in every other city). It's a bit awkward because I need to build it in the pigs-gold city where the lighthouse itself is useless.


View attachment 726286

Spoiler :

Looks like you want the second city have the desert gold and share the pigs.

It feels like such an awkward spot to me, but I don't see anything better nearby.

Until Civil Service, it needs to grab the pigs to grow at a reasonable rate, and if you want to work the gold mine you can only work grassland cottages (when you're not grabbing the pigs). I guess the plan for that second city is to do some micro to grow it, and just work the gold and some cottages?

Wow this is definitely an awkward situation in terms of where to send the first settler. If there was another food resource nearby or more grassland river this start would be so much simpler.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Wouldn't there be a good chance that these three tiles could have a resource that you would miss out on in your capital if you move 1NE?

Indeed. The important question is if they are food resources or one of the commerce mines. The other ones are too slow to take into account when placing the capital. IMHO the additional river tiles would be much more important than e.g. calendar resources or a copper/iron.

Frequently I like to check out the terrain I am moving away from to ascertain there are no useful resources there, but here I am more worried about seafood.

Also there are more fog tiles in the north-east, which, albeit being outside the starting BFC, might contain resources.

There always is a risk when making a decision on incomplete information.

In the end here the important question is if three additional river tiles (9 instead of 6) are worth delaying settling by one turn. This is not clear cut, and some would probably not do it, but I think it is at least worth the consideration.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

In the end here the important question is if three additional river tiles (9 instead of 6) are worth delaying settling by one turn. This is not clear cut, and some would probably not do it, but I think it is at least worth the consideration.

I've played through to Astro on this map a few times now, with various capital placements (SIP, 1NE, and both PH that are within the SIP BFC). Whilst there are too many variables to say for certain which is best (I was trying different tech paths and build orders as well), I did prefer settling on the forest 1NE. It does delay the first worker for about 3 turns, though, and I'm not sure if that is significant enough to be a consideration.

 

[aitkensam]

Played through to an Astro date of...

Spoiler :

400AD.

Didn't really beeline all that much as there was a bunch of stuff I wanted to settle. Went south for the first two cities, making the most of creative. Ended up building GLib, Parth and National Epic with a decent amount of fail gold. Decided too late that I should bulb optics as well as double bulb astro so chopped a lot before then teching maths (*cry*). Just traded for Calendar before Astro bulb. Everything else was self teched.

Music hasn't gone yet so hopefully will get that. Then just have to meet the other guys, get some happiness resources and decide who needs to die.

Spoiler :

 

[floydmcw]

Can someone clarify the best bulbing strategy for ISO? Earlier "a pen-dragon" stated that it was best to skip techs like Alpha, and someone else said that you can trade for Alpha after contacting civs.

Well that all sounded reasonable, but whoops techs like Alpha and Math are higher on GS bulbing order than Optics or Astro, per https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/great-people-tech-prefences.140952/.

 

[jorissimo]

Can someone clarify the best bulbing strategy for ISO? Earlier "a pen-dragon" stated that it was best to skip techs like Alpha, and someone else said that you can trade for Alpha after contacting civs.

Well that all sounded reasonable, but whoops techs like Alpha and Math are higher on GS bulbing order than Optics or Astro, per https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/great-people-tech-prefences.140952/.

Very good question, but Optics is usually not bulbed. So it usually goes like this: beeline Optics, meet and trade techs with other civs, and then bulb Astro. CoL and/or Medi and CS must still be avoided of course.

 

[jorissimo]

Decided to give this a go. Emperor, t61:

Spoiler :

I was initially slow to expand, but the continent has been cleared of barbs, so I think it paid off. Went Worker, then 3X warrior, then settler at size 3. After that, I got more warriors while growing to size 4 and built another settler, while currently working on the fourth. Second city went warrior until size 2, then worker, chariot, and is now building another worker. Tech-wise, I went Agri - TW - Pott - AH - BW - Fishing, and now working on Writing. I think I'll make the detour to Lit for TGL. I have gold, so MC will be enough of a happiness tech and I'll forgo Monarchy.

 

[Chalybion]

Spoiler :

I got a 775 BC Great Lighthouse in my second city.

Disadvantages:
- Late gold for happiness (I settled the southern gold with third city)
- No gold research - it took a few turns for GLH gold to kick in and reach 50+% break-even research

Advantages:
- No gold mitigated by mining all of the grass hills south of Yasodharapura. It stagnated at size 5 building settlers+workers with chops.
- Wheat tile can be shared with capital
- Cottaged flood plains is a super tile
- Two maintenance after initial settle
- Lots of hills and forests to build GLH. Can share mines with capital while the last couple of mines are built
- Astro games go late; city will be a powerhouse in the windmill/watermill era

740 AD Astronomy. It could have been faster, but I had seven cities with granary/forge/library/LH, 900 colossus failgold saved (this is extremely lucky - HC could build it nearly instantaneously), four settlers ready to found cities, and a healthy number of workers. Angkor Thom's three food specials cranked out settlers every 7 turns.

840 AD Music - Ramssesses was very close

860 AD trade for CS and Monotheism, hoping for favorable religion spread and headed for cuirs.

Spoiler Turns 51-65 :

First two cities have their granary. Capital is slowly finishing settler for city 4 (southern pigs-gold) while working cottages. It didn't whip anything yet, saving it for library.

City 2 built a workboat for city 3, then whipped the lighthouse with overflow into the GLH on the turn Masonry completed. Now worker is finishing chops into the wonder, while the 2 other workers are improving marble for city 3. After that I can afford sending two workers south for city 4.

View attachment 726297

Spoiler Turns 66-80 :

Two libraries up (whipped in capital, chopped / slow built in Angkor Thom), but not running scientists yet. Great Lighthouse finishing next turn. Capital growing to work all cottages while putting hammers into Pyramids. Angkor Thom will whip lighthouse into a galley to bring the settler for island city (city 2 will build settler). This is delaying my GS a bit, hopefully not too late for Astro. Two workers south improved pigs and gold and will not chop towards granary, workboat and library in that new city, before cottaging.

View attachment 726304

Spoiler Turns 81-98 :

Looks like 22 turns to Optics (Machinery - Compass - Optics) at my current breakeven rate.

GPP meter shows capital first, but I have been micromanaging it to almost grow to 7 (where it would be unhappy) with 1 scientist, then starve with 2 scientists (not working wheat). I still plan for Angkor Thom to generate the first GS, then capital will run 2 scientists for ~17 turns.

I think I will settle one more city before Optics? That would be the settler being built south, going to SE fish/iron/river spot. Both pigs/gold cities will also build triremes to upgrades to caravels.

I didn't get too much extra production so far besides the Pyramids failgold in capital, every city has a granary and library, two have lighthouses and that's it.


View attachment 726307

 

[notslin]

In the end here the important question is if three additional river tiles (9 instead of 6) are worth delaying settling by one turn. This is not clear cut, and some would probably not do it, but I think it is at least worth the consideration.

The importance of river tiles is interesting to me to try to understand.

I do feel like an awesome Oxford capital often has a lot of river.

However, 3 extra base commerce long term (from 3 extra river tiles) doesn't sound like that much. And short term, you're obviously not going to work all the river tiles, even with cottage sharing.

I think you're more likely to lose a resource in BFC than gain one by moving, and you're also losing a turn (and maybe a couple more turns due to losing forested plains hill for faster worker, as Gunboat pointed out).

So when you move, your start gets delayed, but you do end up with a less frustrating capital since you have more river. But how important can river be anyway. I'll have to think... I guess it also gives you a bit more potential for food if you want to farm something to grow?

 

[jorissimo]

However, 3 extra base commerce long term (from 3 extra river tiles) doesn't sound like that much.

It's more about the short term though. +100% instant commerce on 3 additional cottages is quite nice. Although you need the happiness to work them.

 

[notslin]

It's more about the short term though. +100% instant commerce on 3 additional cottages is quite nice. Although you need the happiness to work them.

I see: short term, you'll likely have an easier time cottage sharing, and long term you'll likely have a stronger capital. If you don't have these advantages, I guess you'll need to expand creatively in order to retain the time advantage (3 turns maybe) of SIP.