Highest leader ratings without UU/UBs

[kossin]

Technically, starting tech is tied to civ, not leader... so you should disregard starting techs in a pure-trait comparison.

 

[WelshGandalf]

I love Pericles. You get your first great scientist so early thanks to half-price libraries & being philosophical.

 

[ahcos]

Erm, didn't realise that this was about starting techs aswell. If you take that into account it's getting complicated

Both Egyptian leaders are strong for sure. Same for all the french leaders, and both Ottoman leaders. MM, Pacal, Sury, Ghandi, Zara, Willem... all good leaders.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Mehmed. EXP ORG means cities get up quickly. Two strong hammer-saving Econ traits. With un-restricted leaders, you can play him for any civ and win just as easily, if not more so, than the standard leader options.

 

[civvver]

I sometimes get annoyed that everyone equates Rome with Praetorian. Both of their leaders have awesome traits, IND/IMP for Augustus and IMP/ORG for Julius. Starting techs are fine too, fishing and mining. Not as good as having say agriculture and the wheel, but perfect for getting a jump start on masonry if your Augustus or bronze working for either. Works best with a coastal start and some fishes.

I also love Roosevelt. I pretty much love all organized leaders. Asoka is great too but it's his UU that really puts him at the top.

 

[Bei1052]

Going on traits alone, I'd say my favorite is Napoleon. His traits are the (absolute) best for early warring. Hatty is probably second.

 

[Archbob]

Depends on map type.

I'd say HC or the Philo/Fin combination. Or Philo or Fin/Philo or Cre/anything.

 

[civvver]

Why do people love philosophical so much? In the entirety of the game it nets you maybe one extra great person? I don't get it. I've never had trouble getting great people and only find it useful when going for something like a metal casting -> engineer -> bulb machinery slingshot or something like that.

 

[Edungeon]

Nobody talked about Boudicca, i think. I love her Char/Aggre combo, not that she is the best of the game, but it gives a lot of momentum do my early rush, i think warring is very easy (and fun) to do with her.

 

[Ororo]

Why do people love philosophical so much? In the entirety of the game it nets you maybe one extra great person? I don't get it. I've never had trouble getting great people and only find it useful when going for something like a metal casting -> engineer -> bulb machinery slingshot or something like that.

It's not the absolute ammount of GPs that matters, but rather the pace at which you get them. Fast GP generation often results in a much earlier Lib dates/finish dates.

It seems to me that you underestimate the power of Philosophy -> (Paper) -> Education (2x) -> (Liberalism) BULB.

PHI with CRE allows you to start GS spawning madness very early.
PHI with SPI allows for some very versatile Specialist play (in and out of Caste/Pacifism and possibly Representation).
PHI with FIN is great for teching.
...

 

[JammerUno]

@ civvver

because there's a gap of a couple of thousand beakers between teching something and not being able to trade it to every AI, and bulbing it and doing just that.

 

[Mylene]

...and you can have your academy earlier, spare GS for PP or similiar bulbing, GMs..~~
After bulbing Edu, with PHI otherwise expensive Unis are unlocked for half the cost.
Synergy between bonuses is second to none.

 

[ben-jammin]

Why do people love philosophical so much? In the entirety of the game it nets you maybe one extra great person? I don't get it. I've never had trouble getting great people and only find it useful when going for something like a metal casting -> engineer -> bulb machinery slingshot or something like that.

Philosophical gets you far more than one extra great person, and it gets you them far sooner. What difficulty do you play on? This may explain why you dont find GP so useful.

 

[coanda]

Philosophical gets you far more than one extra great person, and it gets you them far sooner. What difficulty do you play on? This may explain why you dont find GP so useful.

I don't know that I'd say PHI gives far more than 1 additional GP. Generally 2-4 extra GP. If most of your specialists are run during a couple Golden Ages where you're in Caste + Pacifism and are starving your cities, it's quite possible you'll end up only getting 1 extra GP out of it.

But getting them all so much sooner is where PHI really shines. Get the GP early enough, you bulb a monopoly tech and trade to get caught up elsewhere, or get the first-to-Lib bonus, or have a clear run at a wonder you want...

Get the GP a couple dozen turns later, and even though you end up with almost as many in the long run they are far less useful to you.

 

[civvver]

Philosophical gets you far more than one extra great person, and it gets you them far sooner. What difficulty do you play on? This may explain why you dont find GP so useful.

Great people are extremely useful. I just don't find getting them earlier that useful. I typically have two or so scientists to bulb on the way to lib (usually bulb one for philosophy and one on education). Getting an academy early is a fair point but I generally just wait for the academy as a bulb on epic/marathon is a much bigger return early. I play emperor.

 

[Archbob]

Early academy, bulbs and early GP settling = win

 

[cseanny]

Sury is absolute king of early game with bonus on workers, granaries and libraries.

He's probably my favorite leader! A real beast. My only gripe would be silly hunting as a starting tech. Sucks when you happen to get copper pop up in a hill in your capital on a river. There goes warrior spam for HR. In those cases it would be better to have a CRE leader w/out hunting so you could grow vertical much faster. I agree with the notion that the best leaders are the ones that get off to the quickest start.

With the following leaders I can almost always guarantee a 13+ Bureaucracy Capital with at least 5 total cities no later than 1AD on Emperor and below which is pretty much game over.

My other favorites would be Hatty, Louie (early oracle almost guaranteed), Pericles, Gandhi (best uu, had to mention it!), Lincoln, and Fredrick is a beast too. What I value most in a leader is the ability to get quick research, border pops, gpp, and quick infrastructure. Philo is great for some unorthodox openings and can lead to some crazy early Liberalism times (1AD my personal best).

Edit: duh, I forget William and Zara!!

 

[krikav]

a bulb on epic/marathon is a much bigger return early.

I don't understand why this would be the case. Nothing in the numbers I am checking support this.


About philosophical, I share your opinion to a certain degree.
When I play phi, I find that the first GSci can accually arrive to early. I don't really know what to do with him. (bulb math?!).
And also since they come so soon, I sometime get a barrage of Gpersons, and then I get almost none for the rest of the game.

I attribute this to lack of attention though, one can controll the GPP generation alot more, than I usually do.
And if you are skilled with the timings, you can do absolute magical things with philosophical.

 

[Um the Muse]

I thought it was standard to use your first GS as an academy in your cap?

 

[Archbob]

I thought it was standard to use your first GS as an academy in your cap?

No, sometimes its better just to settle him in your science city. If your going to war early and have your slider on 0, that academy is not going to do much.