Highest leader ratings without UU/UBs

[cseanny]

I thought it was standard to use your first GS as an academy in your cap?

More cases than not it's probably the preferred choice, minus certain deliberate bulb and war strategies. Philo shines here if you library up after your 2nd settler comes out. Lets you get an academy and settle one GS around 1500-1300 BC with about 34-36 beakers. After that I like to remove the scientist and start working cottages I had been building.

 

[ben-jammin]

Great people are extremely useful. I just don't find getting them earlier that useful. I typically have two or so scientists to bulb on the way to lib (usually bulb one for philosophy and one on education). Getting an academy early is a fair point but I generally just wait for the academy as a bulb on epic/marathon is a much bigger return early. I play emperor.

Emperor it's possible to stay ahead in the tech race with focus but without bulbing anything. If you move up to immortal you'll see how good Philosophy is, for bulbing or for a SSE. If you can build the pyramids philosophical almost becomes overpowered for settling great people.

 

[ben-jammin]

I don't know that I'd say PHI gives far more than 1 additional GP. Generally 2-4 extra GP. If most of your specialists are run during a couple Golden Ages where you're in Caste + Pacifism and are starving your cities, it's quite possible you'll end up only getting 1 extra GP out of it.

But getting them all so much sooner is where PHI really shines. Get the GP early enough, you bulb a monopoly tech and trade to get caught up elsewhere, or get the first-to-Lib bonus, or have a clear run at a wonder you want...

Get the GP a couple dozen turns later, and even though you end up with almost as many in the long run they are far less useful to you.

If you dont use a strategy that takes advantage of the philo trait, then you're just not very good at using it.

 

[krikav]

I thought it was standard to use your first GS as an academy in your cap?

Due to the 8 free commerce from the palace, this is usually a good idea.
However, if you have a very good production site for capital, and you have no intentions of running specialists there, nor any plans for making cottages, a academy will quickly lose it's luster...

Better to build a academy in a city with better long-term prospects of generating commerce, or settle him somewhere, or just bulb maths.

It's a akward situation I sometimes find myself in, and when one is playing philosophical, it's usually more of a pain, since you do want the Gpersons out quickly and do good things with them.
When there isn't any clear cut ways of how to use the GPersons... I don't really enjoy PHI.

 

[Iranon]

If you dont use a strategy that takes advantage of the philo trait, then you're just not very good at using it.

If you don't use a strategy that takes advantage of the philo trait, then you're just not very good.

Early Great People are very powerful for the limited investment and should be chased while they're cheap, PHI or not. The way GPP scale means you'll be 2-3 GP ahead quite early and hold on to that advantage, this holds for ANY sane strategy until the late game.
PHI isn't about getting more volume out of it, it's about putting what you get to good use. While I find the other economy traits slightly more powerful, PHI makes up for this in flexibility.

*

I like Roosevelt's traits best, but starting techs would make me prefer Mehmed.

 

[bhavv]

Without UUs and UBs, clearly Sury as his UU an UB are his main drawbacks (along with hunting).

CRE + EXP are a top economic combination, faster libraries, free border pops, faster granaries, workers, +2 per city.

Following Sury:

Mehmed (EXP + ORG) - Already has a very powerful UU and UB, so these would be missed. Takes longer to get libraries built and border pops, but with how many other cheap buildings you get it is easily compensated.

Zara Yaqob (CRE + ORG) - His UB is trash which is why I never play him, so removing UUs and UBs would make him a lot better

Willem (CRE + FIN) - Fast libraries and border pops combined with more gold.

Pericles (CRE + PHI) - Fast libraries and fast Great Scientists, very powerful trait combination.

Darius (FIN + ORG) - has the most potential GPT savings, but no decent bonuses until Courthouses, and Lighthouses are rarely useful as land tiles are better early in the game, unless you have multiple seafood tiles.

If you don't use a strategy that takes advantage of the philo trait, then you're just not very good.

The thing is though that Philo is very overrated. You can pull off 2-3 GSs very early using Creative. In order to get GSs you need scientists, and CRE gets them faster. Pericles would be the strongest leader to play for these reasons if pursuing a GP strategy, otherwise I wouldnt really feel any more advantaged with PHI if I had to lose CRE to get it.

 

[jihe]

Pericles is an insane combination of traits.

 

[jihe]

I don't understand why this would be the case. Nothing in the numbers I am checking support this.


About philosophical, I share your opinion to a certain degree.
When I play phi, I find that the first GSci can accually arrive to early. I don't really know what to do with him. (bulb math?!).
And also since they come so soon, I sometime get a barrage of Gpersons, and then I get almost none for the rest of the game.

I attribute this to lack of attention though, one can controll the GPP generation alot more, than I usually do.
And if you are skilled with the timings, you can do absolute magical things with philosophical.

There is never "too early" for your GS. An early settled scientist can easily be 20-30% of your total research. Math bulb is also very good for construction wars, or if you have lots of forests around.

 

[cseanny]

I like Surys UB. More food = quicker growth = better whipping which leads to quicker infrastructure (better whipping). Besides, early and mid game you don't really need an overkill of commerce or research. Food baby food, lol.

And I'd have to question that CRE gets scientist faster. I'd say they can start running scientist faster but definitely not generate them quicker. Leaders that are Industrious or Organized are great too. Quick forges which add a positive bonus to the whip, is yes please!, and who doesn't like quicker CHs? Good warmonger traits for sure, as is Philo.

 

[jihe]

I like Surys UB. More food = quicker growth = better whipping which leads to quicker infrastructure (better whipping). Besides, early and mid game you don't really need an overkill of commerce or research. Food baby food, lol.

And I'd have to question that CRE gets scientist faster. I'd say they can start running scientist faster but definitely not generate them quicker. Leaders that are Industrious or Organized are great too. Quick forges which add a positive bonus to the whip, is yes please!, and who doesn't like quicker CHs? Good warmonger traits for sure, as is Philo.

For the first scientist, PHI leaders get in 9 turns, CRE leaders in 17. The library costs 45 for CRE leaders. So the question is whether your city can produce 45 hammers in 8 turns. However there are several factors, first you do not want to have your capital running scientists since it should be pumping settlers/workers, so you are going to be building the library in a lower production city, second if you are working hills then you are not growing your city to be able to run 2 scientists after completion of library, third taking into account chopping CRE leaders can get library even faster since two forest chops while working food resources to grow will get a library up. So at the end CRE leaders do overall have a faster first GS. But it's the second and third GS that PHI really shines.

 

[Mylene]

45h is just 1.5 population, easy to forget and not hard to get in good food cities
CRE is overrated, not PHI

 

[cseanny]

However there are several factors, first you do not want to have your capital running scientists since it should be pumping settlers/workers, so you are going to be building the library in a lower production city

I disagree here. The capital should be the preferred spot due to a better +25% bonus. I always run 2 scientist in my Capital Asap, usually right after 2nd settler/worker wave. With CRE the finish date is never later than 1600, ever. With Philo 1440 (3 chops and a little production or 2 chops and a whip). Seriously, the early and mid game, like up to Rifles, should be food, food, and more food, in conjunction with whipping at every opportunity and then whip again for good measure.

CRE is overrated, not PHI

Agreed, but........ CRE is still my favorite trait lol. Just hate me some hunting!! GGGRRRRR!! I find myself disconnecting my trade network a lot so I can chop an army of warriors for HR lol.

 

[ben-jammin]

Due to the 8 free commerce from the palace, this is usually a good idea.
However, if you have a very good production site for capital, and you have no intentions of running specialists there, nor any plans for making cottages, a academy will quickly lose it's luster...

Better to build a academy in a city with better long-term prospects of generating commerce, or settle him somewhere, or just bulb maths.

It's a akward situation I sometimes find myself in, and when one is playing philosophical, it's usually more of a pain, since you do want the Gpersons out quickly and do good things with them.
When there isn't any clear cut ways of how to use the GPersons... I don't really enjoy PHI.

There is always a clearcut way to use the GPerson. An early settled scientist can be a huge chunk of your total research when your slider goes low due to expansion.

 

[bhavv]

Meh, I still managed to pull of liberalism first on Deity in the Genghis game without a single bulb.

I settled the first GS, built an Academy with the second, and then settled two more (running Pacifism + National Epic plus GLH and Glib in my capital).

So yes, bulbing and Philo are both very over rated. I'd much rather have traits that reduce hammer costs, any combination of CRE, ORG and EXP are my favorites, but I dont like Ethiopias UB so I never play them (nor Hattys Obelisk).

 

[ben-jammin]

Meh, I still managed to pull of liberalism first on Deity in the Genghis game without a single bulb.

I settled the first GS, built an Academy with the second, and then settled two more (running Pacifism + National Epic plus GLH and Glib in my capital).

So yes, bulbing and Philo are both very over rated.

Lol.

Because you bulbed lib first in a deity game where it went after 900ad?

 

[bhavv]

No, I meant you can beat the AI to Liberalism without bulbing anything, and without PHI. Early settling of great Scientists pays off a lot more BPT over the course of a whole game than bulbing early techs does.

 

[Mylene]

Iam glad we have a new Deity expert, giving us hints why bulbing, PHI and breakouts are *very* overrated.
Where is Obsolete when you need him ~~

 

[Iranon]

I prefer settling/buildings and golden ages in the late game, but I will bulb if I have cause to frontload my progress. Examples:
Getting something juicier from Liberalism
Having built everything around a mechanic I don't have yet (e.g. State Property, Draft-based wars).
Needing trade fodder to stay in the game while abusing my economy for more production.

 

[cseanny]

but I will bulb if I have cause to frontload my progress.

I love this answer and leaders that help me speed up the progress. I find it best to use bulbing to help achieve Liberalism in the 300-450 AD range so I can launch a 30-40 unit Rifle war around 1000-1100 AD (Immortal and Deity). I'd settle all GP AFTER PP, not before. 900 AD, especially on Deity severely delays the Taj, Golden age for Civic changes, more gpp's and accelerated research and production, GMs for Mace upgrades, and Currency another GM and more upgrades. 2 GMs fueled by GPPs lets you upgrade about 16+ units to CR2 Rifles. Draft/Whip/Build the other 20 or so.

So yea, Any leader with Cre, Industrious, and Philo can really Shine in that aspect and Financial and Org compliment them very well. Some might not like CRE but i think its a top tier trait. It saves hammers in the valuable early game and gives cheap and quick discounts on Theaters and Colosseums which you desperately need when drafting/whipping.

 

[bhavv]

Regarding trading, I had no difficulty researching Maths, Currency, Phosophy, Education, Liberism before every Deity AI.

Early techs up to Education are worth very little to bulb, unless you need a military advantage for conquest, or philo for Taoism. Settling pays off so many more BPT over the game than bulbing maths or philosophy does.

PHI isnt even needed to bulb Libralism. You can do that with any leader using the Glib, Scientist specialists, National Epic and Pacifism.