Highest leader ratings without UU/UBs

[bhavv]

You can do alot of things if the map is generous or forgiving. I'm assuming Mylene and Iranon are talking about close or tough games. There is little use for more overall beakers from a settled GS, if that means you don't get the advantage you need to break out of a tricky situation.

I dont see why anyone would choose to play a poor start to the highest difficulty levels.

There is little use for bulbing if the AI has already researched the bulb tech too. Bulbing doesnt always give you an advantage, the only techs that are worth it are Philosophy if you can get it before anyone else, and Education due to how expensive it is, and both of these get you to Liberalism faster.

PHI, SPI and IND give you far less advantage on the highest difficulties than CRE, EXP and ORG do. FIN is ok, but when I used to play Hannibal exclusively on Immortal difficulties my Cities used to fall so far behind in development, and when I moved on to playing Sury or Mehmed and learned to manage a specialist economy, my cities were being built up and developed unbelievably quicker. Half production buildings for all your cities is unbeatable, and the more the better. Colosseums and Theatres are actually insanely good for growing your cities for just 40 and 25 each with CRE, and Libraries, Granaries and Courthouses can never be undervalued, these are the first three buildings you want in every city.

 

[Mylene]

the only techs that are worth it are Philosophy if you can get it before anyone else, and Education due to how expensive it is, and both of these get you to Liberalism faster.

PHI, SPI and IND give you far less advantage on the highest difficulties than CRE, EXP and ORG do.

...and Lib, PP for bulbing, Paper if you really have loads of GP. Chemistry later..
For even better stuffs, you can check out Kukameika sgotm.

Besides, you listed 3 excellent traits and compared them to 3 average (with EXP maybe above average). You say highest difficulties, Deity huh?

 

[ben-jammin]

I dont see why anyone would choose to play a poor start to the highest difficulty levels.

There is little use for bulbing if the AI has already researched the bulb tech too. Bulbing doesnt always give you an advantage, the only techs that are worth it are Philosophy if you can get it before anyone else, and Education due to how expensive it is, and both of these get you to Liberalism faster.

There are lots of techs worth bulbing, its very situation-dependant. In most games it worth bulbing any combination of Philosophy, Paper (i usually self tech paper and save the GS to squeeze many more beakers out of them right afterward), Education, Printing Press, Lib, and Chemistry. In some cases an early math bulb is a killer move, ie early breakout the military way. Then there are the more intricate bulbing strategies for an engineering rush which the better players on here have shown can win you the game on deity.

PHI, SPI and IND give you far less advantage on the highest difficulties than CRE, EXP and ORG do. FIN is ok, but when I used to play Hannibal exclusively on Immortal difficulties my Cities used to fall so far behind in development, and when I moved on to playing Sury or Mehmed and learned to manage a specialist economy, my cities were being built up and developed unbelievably quicker. Half production buildings for all your cities is unbeatable, and the more the better. Colosseums and Theatres are actually insanely good for growing your cities for just 40 and 25 each with CRE, and Libraries, Granaries and Courthouses can never be undervalued, these are the first three buildings you want in every city.

Again, it all depends on strategy. And actually organized isn't as good on deity as you might think. Yes the bonus becomes more powerful per city the higher the difficulty. But usually on deity you dont have a lot of room to expand early to maximize this advantage. Industrious is strong if you do the Obsolete style mega wonder/GP farm city. Not sure how anyone can argue that philosophical and spiritual arent amongst the most useful traits on high difficulty (the diplo possibilities alone with spiritual are solid gold).

 

[JammerUno]

I see no reason to play higher difficulty if I'm only going to play easy maps... Might as well play easier difficulty with harder maps.

As for SPI, PHI and IND giving less advantage, I disagree. IND is a money machine far superior to ORG, and both SPI and FIN give you advantages in turns no other trait will give.

As for building so many building in every city, you might want to rethink that.

 

[jihe]

I dont see why anyone would choose to play a poor start to the highest difficulty levels.

There is little use for bulbing if the AI has already researched the bulb tech too. Bulbing doesnt always give you an advantage, the only techs that are worth it are Philosophy if you can get it before anyone else, and Education due to how expensive it is, and both of these get you to Liberalism faster.

PHI, SPI and IND give you far less advantage on the highest difficulties than CRE, EXP and ORG do. FIN is ok, but when I used to play Hannibal exclusively on Immortal difficulties my Cities used to fall so far behind in development, and when I moved on to playing Sury or Mehmed and learned to manage a specialist economy, my cities were being built up and developed unbelievably quicker. Half production buildings for all your cities is unbeatable, and the more the better. Colosseums and Theatres are actually insanely good for growing your cities for just 40 and 25 each with CRE, and Libraries, Granaries and Courthouses can never be undervalued, these are the first three buildings you want in every city.

You should try the machinery/engineering bulb and take over the world with trebs. And half price forges easily beat half price courthouses.

 

[cseanny]

There are lots of techs worth bulbing, its very situation-dependant. In most games it worth bulbing any combination of Philosophy, Paper

On standard settings on Immortal/Deity a beeline towards Asthetics is great for trade bait and an early GL so (and I'm sure a lot of people already do it) heading up to Music for the free GA which you use for a GA is pretty sweet (and more trade bait). The timing of the GA usually corresponds with the completion of the GL/NE and normally produces 3 GS.

You should try the machinery/engineering bulb and take over the world with trebs. And half price forges easily beat half price courthouses.

I'm a bigger fan of half price forges too. The added hammer bonus for whipping is nothing but love, lol.

 

[bhavv]

ORG also gets you half price Factories later on. IND works for failgold, but can you really keep ahead of the AI enough to rely on failgold on Immortal + Deity?

IND is a strong trait up to Emperor, but above that building wonders becomes too much of a gamble, and the AI builds them very quickly reducing any possible gains through failgold.

Forges alone dont beat a 50% reduction to civic upkeep and courthouse costs, they never have on any difficulty level.

It's not the absolute ammount of GPs that matters, but rather the pace at which you get them. Fast GP generation often results in a much earlier Lib dates/finish dates.

Didnt Kossin pull off a BC Liberalism bulb using Sury in one of her Deity bullpens? I remember seeing that because it was the first Deity game I tried out.

So what use exactly is PHI if you can do the same with non PHI leaders?

 

[ben-jammin]

ORG also gets you half price Factories later on. IND works for failgold, but can you really keep ahead of the AI enough to rely on failgold on Immortal + Deity?

Yes, you can.

IND is a strong trait up to Emperor, but above that building wonders becomes too much of a gamble, and the AI builds them very quickly reducing any possible gains through failgold.

There is a strategy that's very successful on the highest difficulties that revolves around building as many wonders as possible.

So what use exactly is PHI if you can do the same with non PHI leaders?

One game doesnt make a trait useless as you seem to be suggesting. Philosophical is powerful if you take advantage of it, especially combined with creative or spiritual (slavery/caste system cycles).

 

[bhavv]

I didnt state that PHI is useless, I stated that it is less useful than CRE, EXP and ORG because it gives less advantage over the course of a whole game. It isnt a case of only one game, in every game I play with non PHI leaders, I can still easily set up Great Scientist farms, all it takes is the Glib, National Epic, Caste and Pacifism (Even Toku can do this with Agg / Pro without any problem).

Slavery and Caste cycling is a very powerful tactic using SPI, along with being able to swap to Theocracy + Vassalage whenever you want for free unit EXP, but it requires a lot of micromanaging.

I've never actually played a game as Hatty, Gandhi or Mansa, Pericles is the only PHI leader I frequently play as. Whenever I've played Ramesses for wonder spamming, I've always felt that Spiritual helped me very little as it normally only saves me around 5-10 turns in most games, which other traits beat with faster construction times.

How many extra great people does Philosophical normally get you over the course of a full game compared to using the same tactics on non PHI leaders? I really dont think its going to be anymore than 2-3.

 

[MarigoldRan]

What am I wrong about?

I thought you were debating Academy vs Settling of first Great Scientist.

For Marathon/Huge Deity, with standard # of civs, the answer is NEITHER. An early GS is pretty worthless.

1. Academy is bad because your research slider will be low most of the early game, and perhaps most of the later game too.

2. Settling GS is bad because +6 science on a Marathon/Huge map is pretty pathetic.

3. Bulbing Mathematics is pretty worthless too. Consider: why do you bulb Math? To do an early rush. Why do you rush? To get more land. Why do you need more land? The AI took too much of it.

But consider, on a Huge map, you've already GOT more than enough land to expand to (though on average maps you won't have the COMMERCE to do so). Most of your important wars won't start until after Currency or Alphabet.

 

[MarigoldRan]

To discuss other's posts:

1. Engineering rush requires that your civ doesn't start with Fishing. And favors non-coastal starts. So it's pretty specific. And if you set out to do an Engineering rush, you may as well play as the Romans and hit them with praets. If you think about it, praets hit cities just as hard as trebs, cost much, much less, come much, much earlier, and are much better on the open field and on the defense, though praets doesn't do collateral damage. I think that's a more than fair trade-off.

Engineering rushes are useful for a minority of random starts.

I mean, what the heck. Why are people rating Engineering rushes highly and then in the same breath arguing that praets are not? People like that are contradicting themselves. A praet is like a trebuchet, except better (because it's cheaper, comes earlier, and is useful on the open field and on defense).

2. I never liked PHI for Marathon/Huge. PHI is mostly useful for the Education line, and liberalism, but the Nationalism line, I think, is stronger for Marathon/Huge because you have more cities to draft from.

You still need Philosophy for Nationalism, which you can bulb, but you can bulb Philosophy in time pretty easily with a non-PHI civ too.

At the same time, I've never liked CRE either. Other than 1 or 2 libraries in your capital and GP cities, libraries are pretty worthless if your research slider is hovering around 30% and you don't have the Pyramids for representation.

 

[ben-jammin]

I didnt state that PHI is useless, I stated that it is less useful than CRE, EXP and ORG because it gives less advantage over the course of a whole game. It isnt a case of only one game, in every game I play with non PHI leaders, I can still easily set up Great Scientist farms, all it takes is the Glib, National Epic, Caste and Pacifism (Even Toku can do this with Agg / Pro without any problem).

Slavery and Caste cycling is a very powerful tactic using SPI, along with being able to swap to Theocracy + Vassalage whenever you want for free unit EXP, but it requires a lot of micromanaging.

I've never actually played a game as Hatty, Gandhi or Mansa, Pericles is the only PHI leader I frequently play as. Whenever I've played Ramesses for wonder spamming, I've always felt that Spiritual helped me very little as it normally only saves me around 5-10 turns in most games, which other traits beat with faster construction times.

How many extra great people does Philosophical normally get you over the course of a full game compared to using the same tactics on non PHI leaders? I really dont think its going to be anymore than 2-3.

Never bothered to count, but on immortal-deity the more important thing is timing. You get them earlier. You get the snowball effect the earlier you can get your advantages in. The most recent game I played on immortal with Pericles, I bulbed math to fuel a horse archer rush and it was a clean sweep.

Not sure why you think Creative gives you a game-long advantage. The culture bonus is strictly an early settling advantage, the fast library is strictly an early advantage, and coliseum's and theatres are irrelevant unless you're doing a Globe Theatre drafting strategy (i never bother on immortal) or are Pericles and bother to build odeon's, which I rarely do. The irony is that I also tend to build a lot more early libraries with noncreative leader, of course for the border pops, when I don't get sweet early religion spread.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Never bothered to count, but on immortal-deity the more important thing is timing. You get them earlier. You get the snowball effect the earlier you can get your advantages in. The most recent game I played on immortal with Pericles, I bulbed math to fuel a horse archer rush and it was a clean sweep.

Not sure why you think Creative gives you a game-long advantage. The culture bonus is strictly an early settling advantage, the fast library is strictly an early advantage, and coliseum's and theatres are irrelevant unless you're doing a Globe Theatre drafting strategy (i never bother on immortal) or are Pericles and bother to build odeon's, which I rarely do. The irony is that I also tend to build a lot more early libraries with noncreative leader, of course for the border pops, when I don't get sweet early religion spread.

Yes... but if you weren't PHI, couldn't you have bulbed Math in time too?

 

[ben-jammin]

To discuss other's posts:

1. Engineering rush requires that your civ doesn't start with Fishing. And favors non-coastal starts. So it's pretty specific. And if you set out to do an Engineering rush, you may as well play as the Romans and hit them with praets. If you think about it, praets hit cities just as hard as trebs, cost much, much less, come much, much earlier, and are much better on the open field and on the defense, though praets doesn't do collateral damage. I think that's a more than fair trade-off.

Engineering rushes are useful for a minority of random starts.

The same can be said for praet rushes. Beelining IW will leave you at a major disadvantage more often than not as well. It's barely tradeable, and depends on early iron availability.

I mean, what the heck. Why are people rating Engineering rushes highly and then in the same breath arguing that praets are not? People like that are contradicting themselves. A praet is like a trebuchet, except better (because it's cheaper, comes earlier, and is useful on the open field and on defense).

Because it doesnt just get you trebuchets, if you do it right it can get you trebs/macemen/crossbows well before there is any unit that can touch that, on defense or offense.

I've used praets, and the last thing I'd describe them as is overpowered or dominant. I'd say most games involving early war I find regular horse archers the more effective unit of choice. And like I said, engineering/machinery rush strategies get you to the same place as Praets. Slower, less of a gamble (you know if you have the required resource or not before you commit), more dominant military sweet if you do do it right.

 

[MarigoldRan]

The same can be said for praet rushes. Beelining IW will leave you at a major disadvantage more often than not as well. It's barely tradeable, and depends on early iron availability.



Because it doesnt just get you trebuchets, if you do it right it can get you trebs/macemen/crossbows well before there is any unit that can touch that, on defense or offense.

I've used praets, and the last thing I'd describe them as is overpowered or dominant. I'd say most games involving early war I find regular horse archers the more effective unit of choice. And like I said, engineering/machinery rush strategies get you to the same place as Praets. Slower, less of a gamble (you know if you have the required resource or not before you commit), more dominant military sweet if you do do it right.

1. If you hate bee-lining IW so much, don't beeline it. Trade for it, which is easy as hell to do, for precisely the reason you listed above. At which point, praets are STILL good.

2. And for their cost, praets are BETTER than Xbows, and maces on offense. Even with a treb rush, I'd rather do it with praets than Xbows or Maces.

3. If you say praets are NOT dominant, fine. But that would mean you don't think ANY UU is dominant.

My argument has always been that compared to other UUs, praets are among the best. The argument of whether UUs are useful in the first place is a different matter.

 

[ben-jammin]

Yes... but if you weren't PHI, couldn't you have bulbed Math in time too?

Absolutely not. On normal speed, how the hell are you going to build a library and run scientists and still get your stables and enough horse archers built in time if you dont have the magical phi/cre combo?

 

[MarigoldRan]

Absolutely not. On normal speed, how the hell are you going to build a library and run scientists and still get your stables and enough horse archers built in time if you dont have the magical phi/cre combo?

I don't know. Agg/Cre?

Oh yeah, another good thing about praets: you don't have to worry about your timing window as much. If it comes a little later, it's fine.

After all, a CR str 8 unit trades much more efficiently against cities than a str 6 unit. The whole idea behind HAs is to blitz BEFORE the AI has lots of units. Praets are like ele-pult in that they can wage a war of attrition.

 

[ben-jammin]

1. If you hate bee-lining IW so much, don't beeline it. Trade for it, which is easy as hell to do, for precisely the reason you listed above. At which point, praets are STILL good.

2. And praets are BETTER than Xbows, and maces on offense, for their cost.

3. If you say praets are NOT dominant, fine. But that would mean you don't think ANY UU is dominant.

My argument has always been that compared to other UUs, praets are among the best. The argument of whether UUs are useful in the first place is a different matter.

Quechas are prety much always dominant. War Chariots and Immortals are dominant if you are fortunate with horse placement. Conquistadors are dominant if everything falls into place in time. Lots of units are dominant if everything goes right, including Praets, not just unique ones. If Cavalry and HAs werent dominant when used early enough they wouldnt be the most common factor in all military victories.

Playing marathon and epic all the time, I'm not sure you realize how much smaller the window of opportunity for praets is, and how goddamn slow it is trying to squeeze as much as you can out of that window with 1 movement units.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Quechas are prety much always dominant. War Chariots and Immortals are dominant if you are fortunate with horse placement. Conquistadors are dominant if everything falls into place in time. Lots of units are dominant if everything goes right, including Praets, not just unique ones. If Cavalry and HAs werent dominant when used early enough they wouldnt be the most common factor in all military victories.

Playing marathon and epic all the time, I'm not sure you realize how much smaller the window of opportunity for praets is, and how goddamn slow it is trying to squeeze as much as you can out of that window with 1 movement units.

No, you don't understand. That Deity Praet game by Duckweed and others on NORMAL speed with unpleasant AIs AND a so-so start SHOWED that praets have this HUGE Window of Opportunity for usefulness from early-classical all the way to Medieval era. If it had continued, he would have gone for cannons, at which point praets are STILL useful even into the Industrial era.

SOS was building praets AFTER a HA rush because praets are a good medieval unit (and much better than HAs in the medieval era). Take that for "short timing window."

 

[ben-jammin]

I don't know. Agg/Cre?

Oh yeah, another good thing about praets: you don't have to worry about your timing window as much. If it comes a little later, it's fine.

After all, a CR str 8 unit trades much more efficiently against cities than a str 6 unit. The whole idea behind HAs is to blitz BEFORE the AI has lots of units. Praets are like ele-pult in that they can wage a war of attrition.

Wars of attrition at that point in the game are most often a sure way to never get into a winning position overall. When the AI has significant bonuses in production, research, and early expansion, attrition is a losing strategy. Trebs arent good because they're cheap, they're good because collateral damage saves you overall hammers.

Aggressive does little for a HA rush, barracks are cheap enough already.