His Dark Materials and The Chronicles of Narnia

[greekguy]

ok, so i've just finished reading His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman, and they were great books. so, i thought i would start up a discussion thread to talk about his books and C.S. Lewis' series, Chronicles of Narnia. I remember there being a thread months back when the movie came out, but that one was more focused on Narnia, rather than comparing the 2 works. so, to start things off, i'll tell you my experiences with these books.

I first read the Chronicles of Narnia in 4th/5th grade, and thought they were a good read. They were fun, interesting fantasy books, and that was all. I didn't for once think there was anything to do with religion in them. Now, fastfoward to this past December, when the movie based on The Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe came out. I saw the thread here about the movie, and some people were saying how it was a book to convince young kids to be good Christians. Well, I didn't think so, because when reading the book when I was younger, and I didn't get that message at all. So, I decided to reread the Chronicles this past January, and read them all in less than a week. I discovered that there were definite religious tones in the book and Aslan definitely represented Jesus. I found this very interesting, so I decided to read His Dark Materials, since someone here said Pullman wrote them as an anti-thesis to the Chronicles. I was planning to read the Pullman books shortly after finishing the Chronicles, but I was busy with schoolwork and other things (playing Civ basically every other day didn't help my efforts here either ), and didn't get a chance to read them until this month, during Spring Break.

I just finished The Amber Spyglass yesterday, and I have to say those books were amazing. They were more captivating and complex then Lewis' books, although Lewis' books were great as well, these were simply better. Now I'm not sure if Pullman was trying to take down the Chronicles specifically, but the books were defintely Anti-Religious (if not Anti-Christian specifically). However, leaving the messages of the two works aside for a moment, they are still fantastic books. They were worth the read and I will remember them for a long time.

So, that's my experiences with His Dark Materials and the Chronicles of Narnia. Now I'm interested what you guys thought of these books, so go ahead and post your thoughts about them.

 

[Tycoon101]

I don't recall the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, but His Dark Materials were definetely anti-religeous.

 

[Corlindale]

Like you, I first read the Chronichles of Narnia at a quite young age. I like them quite a lot back then, found the stories interesting and captivating.
I recently reread the series, and althugh they were still good, I started to notice that they were also a bit simplistic in nature, and I haven't really felt like re-reading them again recently. On neither of my reads did I discover the christian analogy found in the books, only the coming of the movie and all the publivity around it called my attention to that.

His Dark Materials are among my all-time favourite fantasy novels, I read them first when I was about 12 years old, but I've re-read them countless time since then. The characters are much more detailed and interesting, the story is much more deep and serious, and touches very delicate themes. I also agree with their message to a large extent, but I don't think their portrayal of the people on either side of things is as black and white as Narnias.

Spoiler :

Lord Asriel is willing to sacrifice a child in order to start his "crusade" against God, and the devillish Mrs. Coulter ends up helping to save the main characters from Metatron.

I also think the ending of His Dark Material is much more original, as well as being among the most toucing things I've ever read.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I read the Narnia books around age ten (and saw the old TV series); I didn't really pay any attention to the religious content.

Somewhat later, I read Out of the Silent Planet with sequels. Here, the religious message is pretty much impossible to miss. The first book is quite good, the sequels rather forgetable.

I've not read His Dark Materials, and likely never will. The reviews I've read don't really entice me, and my reading lists are ever-growning with or without it.

 

[GeneralZed]

I thought the end of His Dark Materials was quite rushed, but nontheless a great book. The only bad part was when both kids were kissing and hugging and and and...

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I think that some of Pullman's criticisms of Narnia are ill-informed. Especially his contention that Lewis equates sexual maturity in women with damnation, based on a bizarre reading of the last book in the series.

 

[tombeef]

I've not read His Dark Materials, and likely never will. The reviews I've read don't really entice me, and my reading lists are ever-growning with or without it.

May I ask what reviews? Almost all of them are great.

His Dark Materials is one of my favorite fantasy series' of all time, I've read it about five times. Phillip Pullman, as an Athiest, would obviously criticize religion. There's that quote in The Amber Spyglass Dr. Mary Malone says soemthing like "religion was just a big waste of time." Hmm... I'd say somewhat obvious there.

Then there's is Serafina Pekkala "All the history of human life has been a struggle between wisdom and stupidity. The rebel angels, the followers of wisdom, have always tried to open minds; the Authority and his churches have always tried to keep them closed." Attackng God there.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Phillip Pullman atacks the Narnia books head-on, which are quite obviously pro-religion, but more religion as a whole. He attacks the politics in religion, believing that it corrupts, not neccesarilly the people who worship it (although, he doesn't mind attacking the belief of God).

Most people who dislike the Pullman books, unfortunately, dislike it because of its view on religion, not neccesarily how good it is.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

His Dark Materials is the worst fantasy I've ever read, I'm not even sure if it should be called fantasty. I am very surprised to hear that some people here actually likes it... I got it for birthday present and I have to say it's the worst piece of crap Ive ever read. Nothing original, nothing funny, nothing exciting. Just plain boring all the way through the whole series.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

His Dark Materials was awesome. Though it's easy to understand why religious people would dislike it. The religious overtones are blatant.

As for Narnia, I never noticed religion in it until someone mentioned it to me when I watched the movie.

 

[BCLG100]

I liked all 3 of Pullmans books but found the Subtle knife a bit boring and slightly a filler book tbh, ive been meaning to read Narnia again because i havnt read them since i was very young

 

[tombeef]

I liked all 3 of Pullmans books but found the Subtle knife a bit boring and slightly a filler book tbh, ive been meaning to read Narnia again because i havnt read them since i was very young

Really? Subtle Knife was the fastest paced I think, it had a lot of action.

Nowadays Narnia is a bit too simple for me, although I did enjoy the movie.

 

[BCLG100]

Really? Subtle Knife was the fastest paced I think, it had a lot of action.

Nowadays Narnia is a bit too simple for me, although I did enjoy the movie.

Hmm i found it the other way, i felt it just dragged along. Difference of opinion obviously

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I liked the fantasy elements of Narnia when I read them as a kid. Now, I still like that aspect, but I also like the religious aspects. The thing is, most of them are so subtle that you won't notice them unless you are already familiar with Christian theology in general and CS Lewis's nonfiction in particular, since Narnia repeats in fictionalized form a lot of what he said in his theological works.

 

[Evie]

Good think you said "most of them", because the Aslan=Jesus connection is ABOUT as subtle as a club in the face.

A nailbat, even.

 

[The Last Conformist]

May I ask what reviews? Almost all of them are great.

Those'd be reviews in my newspaper and SF/F 'zines I read.

Now, those were positive reviews, praising the book - the criticocracy seems united in liking it. But they, perhaps unfairly, gave me the impression the books read like sermons for atheism, which I honestly can live without. I already know the Christian god is, at best, morally ambiguous by the standards we judge mortals.

Now, since you liked the book, I suppose you'll tell me that no, Pullman hasn't let message kill story. Maybe so. This thread has certainly upped the chances I'll give His Dark Materials a chance one day, but, as said, I've got so much else I should be reading.

 

[greekguy]

I agree with tombeef on The Subtle Knife. Although, the first half was a bit slow, once Will acquired the knife itself, the story moved a lot quicker. I still found it more fastpaced than The Golden Compass. I felt at times in that book, Pullman would go a page or so without progressing the story and just describing the landscape.

 

[tombeef]

Now, since you liked the book, I suppose you'll tell me that no, Pullman hasn't let message kill story. Maybe so. This thread has certainly upped the chances I'll give His Dark Materials a chance one day, but, as said, I've got so much else I should be reading.

Well, then you suppose right. While the criticism of religion is there, you don't have to read the books simply from an Athiests perspective.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Now, with me being an atheist and all, reading stuff from an atheistic perspective is pretty much the default for me. That's not the problem - the problem is the fear that Pullman has let message kill story.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Good think you said "most of them", because the Aslan=Jesus connection is ABOUT as subtle as a club in the face.

A nailbat, even.

Yes, that one is overwhelmingly obvious. But I was surprised on rereading them as an adult how many there are that no one who hasn't read his nonfiction will ever find.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Nonetheless, a good many kids manage to miss it.