Historical Carthagian Victories

[SkippyT]

One day (today, actually ) I decided to play as Carthage. The UB, UU and UP looked all right and..yeah. Then I started playing and searching for the dyes, first of all.

But I only found 3. (There was a fourth one in Persia but that was too far away)
1 in northern Egypt, near the Nile Delta (easy to conquer early in the game) and 2 in modern day Syria/Lebanon. Am I supposed to conquer the whole of India and still only have 6?!?! The seventh is in Thailand!!! Unless I decide to cheat and discover Astronomy and go to the Yucatán peninsula..And I can't trade them because the independent city in South east Asia can't talk to me and I can't get that 2nd Indian dye from the Indians without making them my vassals or conquering them. This is a little too hard! It's impossible! Even Carthagian traders couldn't do that, because when I have one dye traded I can't trade another one with for an example China.
A better mission would be: secure 8 different luxury resources. That would be nice.. and possible

But my question is: How are dyes connected to Carthage and how on Earth am I supposed to get my hands on 'em?

I'd also like to ask how circumnavigating the globe has to do with Carthage

Thanks

 

[kairob]

Another suggestion, how about "secure all the dyes in the medetaranian"? and cathage was famouse for its purple dye btw

 

[SkippyT]

Hmm..yes. But wouldn't that be too easy. Just raze 1 Egyptian city, take 1 and then capture one of the independent cities in Syria. I do find that too easy..but yes, maybe add a dye resource in modern day Croatia or near Venice and have the "secure all dyes in the mediterranian" so the Carthagians have to go to war against Rome.

That would be challenging.

And all because of one dye resource

 

[kairob]

That would be chalenging...

 

[Tom Veil]

In my opinion, Carthage's goals should be:

1. Control Spain and Lebanon/Jerusalem by 200 AD
2. Roman Civ destroyed / a vassal
3. Reach Americas by 1000 AD

Reasons why:
1. Historical Carthage founded by Phoenicians, and it went on to found many of Spain's greatest cities
2. To Western History, what's Carthage known for? The Punic Wars.
3. Afro-Phoenicians (read: Carthage) are the leading candidates to have been the mysterious civilization that contacted the Olmecs and, according to Olmec tradition and artwork, sparked the blossoming of Mesoamerican civilization.

 

[Drtad]

I thought the Phoenicians landed in Brazil? But I guess if they could reach Brazil, they could reach the Olmecs.

EDIT: However, aren't the oldest Olmec sites since 3000 BC?

 

[CyberChrist]

Change the required resources from 7 Dye to 7 Wine - problem solved.

Speaking of Dyes - Greece should be required to control 5 Dye as a victory condition (perhaps instead of the circumnavigation). This would force the player to replicate the conquests of Alexander the Great - from Egypt to India.

 

[SadoMacho]

In my opinion, Carthage's goals should be:

3. Reach Americas by 1000 AD

Is this possible, to have optics by 1000AD and build a carvel and get it to america in time?
I like the other ideas, they look realistic.

 

[SkippyT]

3. Reach Americas by 1000 AD

I think that is impossible and historiacally incorrect. Even though the Phoenicians may have reached Meso America, I don't know, but by 1000 AD the Carthagian empire was long since destroyed.

1. Control Spain and Lebanon/Jerusalem by 200 AD
2. Roman Civ destroyed / a vassal

Those, on the other hand, are great ideas and challenging enough. Rhye should consider putting them in

Edit: I think we all agree that the "Secure 7 dyes" isn't a good historical victory?

 

[holy king]

this dye condition is strange indeed...
it was like this since the alpha and i have no idea why rhye didnt change it/put it in in the first place...

 

[SadoMacho]

It has a historical basis, because Phoenicia is the homeland of the purple dye, a very expancive good in the classical age, made from snails that lived in current day Libanon, but controling 7 is way to much. The dye was used by Roman senators, to collor they togas with a purple line, to show their importance.

 

[dafiden]

So, we need to decide on which three goals to focus on.

1. DYES. I like the dyes goal. It's neat and HISTORICAL. But, I think it needs to be toned down to something more practical/achievable. Since the purple dues were made in Tyre, shouldn't Carthage only have to secure the dyes in Tyre (i.e. the ones north of Sur and west of Babili? But, wasn't Carthage also known for it's monopoly on the Mediterranean silver trade (coming from North Africa and Iberia)? Maybe we should include this with the dyes. Of course, securing the 2 dyes in Tyre and the silver in Iberia (and possibly the silver in Africa, but's I don't think there's any in North Africa) may be too easy for a goal. Didn't they trade other luxury items like cotton, wool, silk, incense...? Maybe it makes sense for them to secure a bunch of luxuries for the goal but specifically the Tyre dyes and the Iberian silver.

2. MONEY. Does the 5000 gold symbolize extremely successful trade? If so, it seems like a good historical goal.

3. SETTLEMENTS. This also sounds like a good goal since the Phoenicians settled all over the Mediterranean.

4. WAR. Maybe we ought to consider the Punic, Pyrrhic, or Sicilian wars.

5. AMERICA/CIRCUMNAVIGATION. I don't know. These don't seem too historic to me.

P.S. I got most of my info from wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage

 

[Phallus]

3. Afro-Phoenicians (read: Carthage) are the leading candidates to have been the mysterious civilization that contacted the Olmecs and, according to Olmec tradition and artwork, sparked the blossoming of Mesoamerican civilization.

Just because they're the leading candidates it doesn't make this theory any more credible.

Not least because the Olmecs lived in a completely different time period.

 

[SadoMacho]

I would go with

1.have 2 dye, 1 silver, 2 sheep, 2 wine, 1 Ivory
(you can find the recouces in the land conquered by the Chartagians)
2. Roman Civ destroyed / a vassal
3.controle the medetaranian by 500 AD (a what if... UHV)

 

[SkippyT]

So, we need to decide on which three goals to focus on.

1. DYES. I like the dyes goal. It's neat and HISTORICAL. But, I think it needs to be toned down to something more practical/achievable. Since the purple dues were made in Tyre, shouldn't Carthage only have to secure the dyes in Tyre (i.e. the ones north of Sur and west of Babili? But, wasn't Carthage also known for it's monopoly on the Mediterranean silver trade (coming from North Africa and Iberia)? Maybe we should include this with the dyes. Of course, securing the 2 dyes in Tyre and the silver in Iberia (and possibly the silver in Africa, but's I don't think there's any in North Africa) may be too easy for a goal. Didn't they trade other luxury items like cotton, wool, silk, incense...? Maybe it makes sense for them to secure a bunch of luxuries for the goal but specifically the Tyre dyes and the Iberian silver.

Yes. Rhye should consider this. Maybe have the Malinese pop up earlier (well, I don't know about that..) and let them have a silver resource next to Timbuktu. Both to make the Malinese starting position better and for to make a better Carthagian historical victory. The victory conditions would be:
"Secure 3 dyes and 3 silver by X AD"
(With that we'd have to add a silver resource somewhere else than in modern day Valencia, Spain and the one near Timbuktu..maybe next to Rome)
How about that?

 

[kairob]

I like most of the current suggestions, sorry I cant contribute anything more specific

 

[dafiden]

I would go with

1.have 2 dye, 1 silver, 2 sheep, 2 wine, 1 Ivory
(you can find the recouces in the land conquered by the Chartagians)
2. Roman Civ destroyed / a vassal
3.controle the medetaranian by 500 AD (a what if... UHV)

OK, but:
1. I think it should be specific: e.g. have 2 dyes from Tyre, 1 silver from Iberia, 1 incense from Africa, ...
3. What do you mean by control? What about settlements?

Yes. Rhye should consider this. Maybe have the Malinese pop up earlier (well, I don't know about that..) and let them have a silver resource next to Timbuktu. Both to make the Malinese starting position better and for to make a better Carthagian historical victory. The victory conditions would be:
"Secure 3 dyes and 3 silver by X AD"
(With that we'd have to add a silver resource somewhere else than in modern day Valencia, Spain and the one near Timbuktu..maybe next to Rome)
How about that?)

Rather than just dyes and silver, what about the above option? Also, I don't think Carthage really settled much inland. They were big into coasts and ships.

 

[kairob]

They were primerally a trading empire and your right, they didnt go inland very much at all, I think that them being alon the lines of sadomacho's suggestion is a good idea, but to control the med is a bit extream they would have to invade, the romans, the egyptians, juerusalem (which could pull them into a war with babylon or persia) as well as colonising Iberia!

maybe add a dye resource in modern day Croatia or near Venice and have the "secure all dyes in the mediterranian" so the Carthagians have to go to war against Rome.

I think making them invading rome to get to the resaurces they need is better then invading rome to invade rome, it gives the feel of an insentive much more and I would profere it this way...

 

[Phallus]

Rather than just dyes and silver, what about the above option? Also, I don't think Carthage really settled much inland. They were big into coasts and ships.

They were, but in Hannibal Barca's time there was an important divide amongst Carthaginians. One group wanted to expand further into Africa (though this didn't necessarily mean anything epic like reaching the Sahara) and avoid conflict in the Mediterranean, and the other wanted to focus on Europe and finish off the Romans. As it happens, Hannibal was of the latter persuasion.

 

[kairob]

When you say "epic like reaching the Sahara" they are pretty close to it already where did they wish to advance?