Historical Immersion Factor

How important is the "historical immersion" factor in enjoying a Civ game?

  • Extremely important

    Votes: 342 56.3%
  • Somewhat important

    Votes: 214 35.3%
  • Not very important

    Votes: 51 8.4%

  • Total voters
    607
5. 1UPT Again, this might surprise some, but I consider 1UPT to be more reminiscent of historical events than SoDs. It comes down to Thermopylae, really. Small armies can hold off larger ones if the terrain is right. Thermopylae can never happen in Civ IV or Civ III, because you can stack an infinite number of units on one tile.

I think this is a reasonable reenactment of the battle of Thermopylae. I WB'd 15 barbarian chariots. All of them died against a lone but well-positioned and highly promoted Phalanx via Great General (who I was supposed to name King Leonidas of Sparta). One did manage to withdraw though, but only perhaps to carry the news to its master that the battle for them has been lost at such a great cost.

Note that this was on prince difficulty where Barbarians are tough to kill. I did allow the phalanx unit to fortify for five turns to get max bonus. My first run had a barbarian stack composed of axemen, archers, spearmen and chariots. oddly enough, only the chariots ventured an attack. the rest walked away and completely ignored the phalanx.
 

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The battle of Thermopylae was waged against Persia, was it not?
 
I 100% agree with op. Historical immersion always created so much ambience for me and was part of the reason why i enjoyed civ4 so much. There are many others things that were not mentioned yet. The exploding production capabilities in the industrial era along with a massive unhealthy factor. Free religion and especially emancipation as civics which represent the increase of freedom for each human being as mankind evolves. Certain resources become obsolete as modern civilizations do not demand them (furs and ivory). The increasing number of trade routes during a game representing better infrastructure and globalization... and many other things. Sadly most of these aspects are gone in civ5...
 
I have yet to read about a religious war between people from East Asia and people from Northwestern Europe prior to the 1800s, let alone in the ancient eras.

As you no doubt know this is partially for technological reasons and also because when it comes to religious strife people tend to hate other sects of their own religion even more than completely different religions! Totally bizarre....but I guess it makes sense.
 
The battle of Thermopylae was waged against Persia, was it not?

Point well taken. But I did try to demonstrate that a single unit can hold off a horde given the right terrain and position coupled with reasonable promotions ala Civ 4. I do not mean to hedge in my example, but I do expect you not to engage in definitional retreats.
 
The battle of Thermopylae was waged against Persia, was it not?

The battle of Thermopylae was a "little" different from the movie 300, as you can read by Diodorus Siculus or Herodotos...

First of all the greeks involved were between 6000-7000 and the naval battle of Artemisios was a major part of it. It is true that the path was narrow and helped a lot the first two days of battle, but it was due the fact that the naval battle was lost, so the shortest way was that and the Persians had to pass the block to march forward (in the meantime another force was moving in the greek territory, remember that).

As obvious the Persians were way too strongh, so the third day Leonidas called the war council to declare a retreat, telling the others that only Spartans and Tiespians were going to block the path to ensure the retreat of others. And that was the end, because they were only one thousand...

So history is a little different, If Serses has not complained about getting around the obstacle (it was possible), and the battle at Artemisios was succesfull, than the sacrifice of Spartans could have been meaningless...
 
As you no doubt know this is partially for technological reasons and also because when it comes to religious strife people tend to hate other sects of their own religion even more than completely different religions! Totally bizarre....but I guess it makes sense.

So, if we do religion right, neighbors would be more likely to hate each other to the point of war more frequently than strangers! Hey, it appears that religion is in Civ V already.

katipunero said:
Point well taken. But I did try to demonstrate that a single unit can hold off a horde given the right terrain and position coupled with reasonable promotions ala Civ 4. I do not mean to hedge in my example, but I do expect you not to engage in definitional retreats.

Not at all. I don't expect a single Hoplite to survive a full-on SoD battle whatsoever. What you presented was not a full-on SoD battle. It was one super-promoted counter unit defeating weak examples of the unit it's supposed to counter.

JLoZeppeli:

I'm not sure how this relates to how this would be better portrayed using Stacks of Doom.
 
So, if we do religion right, neighbors would be more likely to hate each other to the point of war more frequently than strangers! Hey, it appears that religion is in Civ V already.



Not at all. I don't expect a single Hoplite to survive a full-on SoD battle whatsoever. What you presented was not a full-on SoD battle. It was one super-promoted counter unit defeating weak examples of the unit it's supposed to counter.

JLoZeppeli:

I'm not sure how this relates to how this would be better portrayed using Stacks of Doom.

It means that using such example to explain that is better 1UPT is not correct. On the other hand we can say that a stack of doom confronts another way too bigger in a narrow place.... 7000 soldiers are a big number, it was the Persian stack of Doom oversized for the times...:D
 
So, if we do religion right, neighbors would be more likely to hate each other to the point of war more frequently than strangers! Hey, it appears that religion is in Civ V already.



Not at all. I don't expect a single Hoplite to survive a full-on SoD battle whatsoever. What you presented was not a full-on SoD battle. It was one super-promoted counter unit defeating weak examples of the unit it's supposed to counter.

JLoZeppeli:

I'm not sure how this relates to how this would be better portrayed using Stacks of Doom.

It means that using such example to explain that is better 1UPT is not correct. On the other hand we can say that a stack of doom confronts another way too bigger in a narrow place.... 7000 soldiers is a big number itself, was the Persian stack of Doom oversized at the time...:D
 
Not at all. I don't expect a single Hoplite to survive a full-on SoD battle whatsoever. What you presented was not a full-on SoD battle. It was one super-promoted counter unit defeating weak examples of the unit it's supposed to counter.

Would you mind providing us an example of how a battle of thermopylae would look like in Civ V with the 1upt mechanic? I have one condition though: the entire thing should not last more than a hundred years. or in other words, can you make it so that such battle concludes in the least amount of turns? we don't want the battle of thermopylae to drag on for years, correct? as you can see in my example, the conflict was resolved in one instance at 3320 B.C. which could be anywhere within the timespan of a day, a week, a month or year if you may.
 
Historical immersion is very important to me and I felt cIV did that in spades. (...) I want to feel like I'm playing in a historically plausible world.

This.
Emphasis put on "plausible".

I don't want to mimic the history of the world as we have in the history books. That would be re-playing.
I want to create and have my part in a historically plausible world.

Granted, if you take a lense, each Civ game lacked in that aspect. Yet, Civ0.V lacks even more.

and the people who want to play or improve Civ 5 will be able to do so more easily without your half dozen posts explaining about how it isn't up to your standards...

Just being curious: in which way does somebody else's different opinion harm your joy to play the game?

I think historical immersion is somewhat important. I also think that Civ V is more historically immersive than the Civs before it, including Civ IV. Why?

1. Religion. Religion has traditionally played a backdrop role in history. The French and the English sharing the same religion did not stop them from merrily butchering each other. For that matter, it didn't stop the Sunni and the Shiites from doing the same. When the Mongols came over Central Asia to crush everything in their path, it wasn't because they were pissed that everyone had a different religion.

In Civ IV, religion played a central part of diplomacy and to determine which allied blocs were allied with each other. This is as much as modern political statement as it is anything else. It certainly isn't historically immersive.

First of all, from the western point of view, the Crusades would have been one example why religion did have much influence in former times.
Canossa comes to mind.
The Order of Teutonic Knights establishing their rule in what later was called Prussia would be another example.
The 30-Years-War (about the different interpretation of key aspects of the christian tradition) would be the next.

Religion having a backdrop role in history? Sorry, but you failed completely.
2. Civics. Many Westerners have this strange notion that European civilization and culture is the only thing that exists on the planet. Certainly, Civ has always been extremely Euro-centric and that's always hurt its historical perspective, IMO. Chinese history doesn't have a Medieval Period, and they've had Crossbows since, like, forever.
That's the reason, as I assume that Patronage is a Medevial Social Policy?
Thus, the Social Policy model makes more sense to me than the Civics model. It may seem strange to some that you can be Monarchial and Democratic at the same time, but England seems to be pulling it off in some senses.
So it makes more sense to you to have England have a +50% bonus on creating Great People (Democracy) and having to spend -50% for acquiring new hexes (Monarchy)?

3. BFC. It has always seemed strange to me that cities could only benefit from and work the areas that are closest to them, especially in the modern eras.
In which way would that have changed with Civ0.V (not to mention the flawed way of picking new hexes)?

Thus, a new city that is near enough can still benefit from the bread baskets of your empire that usually supply the core cities.
Beg your pardon? What are you talking about?

4. Normal tiles. In this Civ V was more like Civs 1-3. There are no megatiles.(...)
In Civ IV, Super Tiles meant that a city was founded mainly on the special resources it could harvest, and this advantage carried forward into modern eras.

Seems to me that most cities in ancient areas have been placed near to easy to harvest food resources of whatever way.
There have been (and still are) fertile areas, and areas which didn't allow so much for a good harvest. This is reflected by what you call mega- or super tiles.
5. 1UPT Again, this might surprise some, but I consider 1UPT to be more reminiscent of historical events than SoDs. It comes down to Thermopylae, really. Small armies can hold off larger ones if the terrain is right. Thermopylae can never happen in Civ IV or Civ III, because you can stack an infinite number of units on one tile.

And now please tell us, how often Thermopylae has happened in human history?
Why do we still remember that battle after 2000 years? You are right, because it was such an exception that it stayed in the mind of people.

If you could name me a premodern religious war where the participants had to embark on a long intercontinental water route to reach their enemies, I would be much obliged.
Ever read about the logistic problems during the Crusades, finally leading to the Crusaders losing grasp on the Holy Land?
 
JLoZeppeli:

I'm not sure I get your meaning. All the other details aside, the Spartans held off the Persians with a force many times their number. How would 1UPT not be better at this than SoD? In 1UPT, as in the real scenario, the narrow defile prevented the Persians from simply overwhelming the Greeks with sheer numbers of troops. This is better than SoD, is it not?

How would an SoD model express the fact that in a narrow pass, having superior numbers of troops doesn't translate to a tactical advantage?
 
lschnarch said:
First of all, from the western point of view, the Crusades would have been one example why religion did have much influence in former times.
Canossa comes to mind.
The Order of Teutonic Knights establishing their rule in what later was called Prussia would be another example.
The 30-Years-War (about the different interpretation of key aspects of the christian tradition) would be the next.

Religion having a backdrop role in history? Sorry, but you failed completely.

I don't view the Crusades as being driven by religion, though that is usually the reason given. As far as I can tell, religion there was merely a uniting element causing neighbors to forget their own disputes for a while to go beat up on richer folks.

I mean, most of these wars are between people who are proximate to each other. I don't think you need religion to explain why one person might want to beat up another person for his land and money.

lschnarch said:
That's the reason, as I assume that Patronage is a Medevial Social Policy?

I'm not getting how this relates to the comment.

lschnarch said:
So it makes more sense to you to have England have a +50% bonus on creating Great People (Democracy) and having to spend -50% for acquiring new hexes (Monarchy)?

Yeah. About as much sense as it ever has.

lschnarch said:
In which way would that have changed with Civ0.V (not to mention the flawed way of picking new hexes)?

Beg your pardon? What are you talking about?

Cities in Civ V can take and use tiles from as much as three tiles away, while realistically using only about a third of their tile coverage for most of the game. Hex tiles in Civ V are big - a sizable peninsula can be spanned with 7 tiles.

This means that you can found a city across two tiles of pure desert and still use the rich farmlands that are in the heart of your Civ, while your Workers improve the tiles surrounding your new holdings. Ultimately,the city will withdraw and use its own tiles, but until then, it can use previously improved farm tiles.

lschnarch said:
Seems to me that most cities in ancient areas have been placed near to easy to harvest food resources of whatever way.
There have been (and still are) fertile areas, and areas which didn't allow so much for a good harvest. This is reflected by what you call mega- or super tiles.

Most cities in CivV should still be founded near such tiles, since they give better-than-normal returns prior to acquiring advanced technology. Wheat tiles continue to give +1 food premium into modern times. Sheep tiles near rivers give 2/2/1 outside of Civil Service, which is equivalent to farmed hill tiles - one of the strongest tiles in the game.

In the modern world, we are not constrained by such limitations. Some areas give more harvest than others, but it doesn't mean that the proximate cities near them will necessarily be larger as a result.

lschnarch said:
And now please tell us, how often Thermopylae has happened in human history?
Why do we still remember that battle after 2000 years? You are right, because it was such an exception that it stayed in the mind of people.

It's just the most famous example of a thoroughly normal tactical situation: in a narrow pass, you cannot take advantage of numbers to effect a victory. Battles in mountain passes for defensive purposes generally have such stories around them, usually with similar results. Usually, they win, though.

lschnarch said:
Ever read about the logistic problems during the Crusades, finally leading to the Crusaders losing grasp on the Holy Land?

I don't consider the 7th Crusade much of a religiously-motivated conflict, and that's not exactly what I would call a long intercontinental water route. I was thinking of something along the lines of Spain launching a war against India. For religious reasons.
 
In Civ4 there was small details which improved this feeling of historical immersion, such as random events. I miss random events and I can't see the reason why Firaxis did not implement them in Civ5: it's cheap and fun.
I hope it's booked in for a coming expansion pack...
 
JLoZeppeli:

I'm not sure I get your meaning. All the other details aside, the Spartans held off the Persians with a force many times their number. How would 1UPT not be better at this than SoD? In 1UPT, as in the real scenario, the narrow defile prevented the Persians from simply overwhelming the Greeks with sheer numbers of troops. This is better than SoD, is it not?

How would an SoD model express the fact that in a narrow pass, having superior numbers of troops doesn't translate to a tactical advantage?

A SOD of seven units vs a stack of 70:lol:

assuming one unit in civ V is 1000 men...

But the scale is the problem, because in a scenario of Thermopylae ( have played numerous historical tabletop wargame) the narrow passagge must be some hexes large anyway, not a single hex, to put it simple.

Or i have to remind you that the units in Civ are different and not an army? In a army, even of 7k men, were archers, slingers, oplites (and some cavalry, but very few in the Thermopylae battle)... 1UPT and you have to chose who put in the tile (assuming Thermopylae is not wider than one hex, due to the scale of Civ)... Stack and you can heve archers and oplites, more realistic or not?;)

So the true answer is, why do they not put armies (call to power-like), instead of stack of doom or 1UPT? it is the most favourable option due the scale of the maps...
 
So, if we do religion right, neighbors would be more likely to hate each other to the point of war more frequently than strangers! Hey, it appears that religion is in Civ V already.

Religion should not be in the game for the sole purpose of creating gameplay mechanics.....it should be in the game because it remains an important facet of human existence.
 
JLoZeppeli:

I suspect it must be because of the failure of the Army mechanic in Civ 3 Conquests, in which there was just such a mechanic, and the AI proved utterly incapable of dealing with it. Using the Army at all came to be considered as a form of exploit.

jjkrause4:

And so it is. The Piety tree, Temples, and other such things reflect that religion is part of the human condition.
 
About the army matter: they deliver a crappy 1UPT, due to AI performances, so it's the same. I think was way better to work on army Ai, on the base of previous works, than try to introduce another flawed mechanic... Don't say it is good AI, please, refrain from silly answers like other players, I crushed yesterday the Iroquese with only four horseman and two archers on Emperor and now i'm ruling my continent (i crushed French, Iroquese, German, Askia and Chinese, and they waged war against me in the first).

On the "religious side" of your post, i hope you were joking speaking of Piety or the Temple as equivalent to a true religion feature....:D

We need an overhaul of Civ IV religion, to fit in the Civ V mechanics and be less exploitable...
 
In Civ4 there was small details which improved this feeling of historical immersion, such as random events. I miss random events and I can't see the reason why Firaxis did not implement them in Civ5: it's cheap and fun.
I hope it's booked in for a coming expansion pack...

Unfortunately, Civ5 doesn't seem to traffic in small details. I can't even look up the population in my cities, so a size 15 city means absolutely nothing to me. Which is really a shame.
 
JLoZeppeli:

And so it is. The Piety tree, Temples, and other such things reflect that religion is part of the human condition.

A basic belief system yes.. religion no.. people seem confused about what religion is :D
 
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