Historical Inaccuracies with Persia article

[Gaspar~]

Interesting thread. All I really wanted to say.

 

[linjon1]

I really wanted to say this earlier.
Although there are obviously errors in the civopedia, i thanks it's probably more info than many gamers would get otherwise.

 

[shahreevar]

I really wanted to say this earlier.
Although there are obviously errors in the civopedia, i thanks it's probably more info than many gamers would get otherwise.

what do you mean by that?

and btw this thread is not about the politics of modern Iran, so comming here, and commenting on it is not appro, since we have the OT for that,and there are plenty of these sort of threads out there. every word has its time and place.

 

[linjon1]

"what do you mean by that? "

I mean some education is more than no education.

You got a problem with that??

"and btw this thread is not about the politics of modern Iran, so comming here, and commenting on it is not appro, since we have the OT for that,and there are plenty of these sort of threads out there. every word has its time and place."


Uhh, who are you??

Why didn't you write how this thread is not about slamming the US.

 

[Sidhe]

Gotta love the US it thinks belittling other people and mocking religion is a viable form of expression, as does Denmark. In my country it's illegal thankfully.

And I made that comment in reference to going on line and finding out about other cultures, it sounded to me like you were saying that the previous guys posts weren't worth agreeing with. Yes I'll insult you if you don't have the decency to read mt post properly and winding up Americans is like shooting fish in a barrel, that's why you think everyone is spamming the forums. The wolrd looks at Americas gov with a disparaging eye(get used to it they are morons) if anyone dares to question any American they fly off in a huff. Your media is a political machine nothing more nothing less,it has lost any real objectivity that is an opinion but I'm not exactly in a minority on that. But then I guess your one of those guys who like his opinion spoon fed to him.

Christ on a bike read the damn thread please. point 1 then point 2

 

[warpus]

Gotta love the US it thinks belittling other people and mocking religion is a viable form of expression, as does Denmark. In my country it's illegal thankfully.

And I made that comment in reference to going on line and finding out about other cultures, it sounded to me like you were saying that the previous guys posts weren't worth agreeing with. Yes I'll insult you if you don't have the decency to read mt post properly and winding up Americans is like shooting fish in a barrel, that's why you think everyone is spamming the forums. The wolrd looks at Americas gov with a disparaging eye(get used to it they are morons) if anyone dares to question any American they fly off in a huff. Your media is a political machine nothing more nothing less,it has lost any real objectivity that is an opinion but I'm not exactly in a minority on that. But then I guess your one of those guys who like his opinion spoon fed to him.

Christ on a bike read the damn thread please. point 1 then point 2

You can mock anything you want in a free society, including religion. A free society does not mean that you have the right not to be insulted.

 

[Sidhe]

Of course then England is not a free society as we don't tolerate religous bigotry in any form.

Free speech is constitutional in the US, no one questions someones right to air views all I'm saying is morally someone should question there own expression of there own views because stoking up religous ire is a pretty moronic thing to do and to hide behind free speech is nothing short of blind stupidity. I mean honestly if the "arabs" burnt jesus on the cross on al jazhera and said death to the democratic west, Allah is our leader. What do you think would happen. No we wouldn't be threatening to murder anyone, but I suspect we'd be thinking it.

edit in:

Insult deleted by me.

You are not worth being warned over.

edit out:

I dont exactly know what this means but, who the hell are you?

And what did he say that you had to delete it? Thankfuly there is no free speech on a forum

Iran is building nukes but then sooner or later everyone'll have them IMO. Antimatter bombs will make war redundant anyway

This thread has gone off topic enough anyway.

Back to the interesting dialogue about the arabic country of Persia

 

[linjon1]

I must admit i'm confused.
first off: With respect to op, what I mean ( poorly stated by me, before, i agree) is that even though the civ is flawed, reading up on history may very well spark an interest in gamers to learn more.

What i really don't understand is why it seems ok to label me a bigot, but when i defend myself i'm a troll, a troublemaker, etc.

You chose to attach your blanket " we all agree" statement as the first sentence in a paragraph labelling the us media as a propoganda machine and the Iran as not an isolationist country with nuclear designs.

I didn't insult you, i didn't manipulate words( ie.."i'm sure you're not a bigot"),
i just said we all don't agree.

I left it that way , not wanting to get involved in any protracted disagreement .

Then you come on and slam me.

"Would you care to elaborate because to me that sentiment sounds frighteningly bigoted,"

you freely admit my statement is rather vague, yet you have the gall to criticize it anyway.

why?

And as for deleting my insult to you, I figured it would be best .

I really have no desire to get into any "p'ng" match.

 

[Dark Helmet]

TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HERAT

Of all the civs, Persia in my opinion is the civ the developers slapped together at the last possible second.

 

[Depravo]

Of course then England is not a free society as we don't tolerate religous bigotry in any form.

More fool us for not acquiring a secular tradition. I'll take free speech over a state where no man may criticise another's imaginary friend any day.

 

[warpus]

Of course then England is not a free society as we don't tolerate religous bigotry in any form.

Free speech is constitutional in the US, no one questions someones right to air views all I'm saying is morally someone should question there own expression of there own views because stoking up religous ire is a pretty moronic thing to do and to hide behind free speech is nothing short of blind stupidity. I mean honestly if the "arabs" burnt jesus on the cross on al jazhera and said death to the democratic west, Allah is our leader. What do you think would happen. No we wouldn't be threatening to murder anyone, but I suspect we'd be thinking it.

Perhaps you would be thinking it.. I wouldn't really give a damn.

Freedom of speech is a right as well as a responsibility; it has to be used responsibly - I agree with that. However, you should have the right to say something totally outrageous if you really want to, even if it offends someone.

Limiting free speech due to somebody being offended is a very slippery slope, one we should stear clear of.

 

[Eiba]

You chose to attach your blanket " we all agree" statement as the first sentence in a paragraph labelling the us media as a propoganda machine and the Iran as not an isolationist country with nuclear designs.

Ah, well at least from where I'm sitting this seems just to be a misunderstanding.

He was saying "I'm sure we can all agree" to the post he quoted, referring to the sentiment that it's always good to hear things from another culture's perspective, even if you don't agree with all of it.

It looked like you were disagreeing with that sentiment, implying that you thought other cultures were worthless...
It appears, fortunately that that isn't directly the case.


That's what I see at least, for what it's worth. It's a pity that such hostility has cropped up in an otherwise fascinating thread...

 

[Dairuka]

Hopefully a moderator will see this thread for what it has become. A powder keg with a partially lit fuse.

You people sure know how to destroy a good thread.

 

[cyrusIII85]

The Persian Empire in Alexander's time was quite different to the Iran of today however. The Persians were a tribe Aryan people who settled in the area next to the Persian gulf and were subject to the Medes until Cyrus the Great restored their indpenance.

Well...Iranians are still Aryans and Persians and Medes still exist (Azeris I believe are the descendents of the Medes, but there have been some controversy over this issue). The term "Persian" however has expanded to include all people who speak Khorasani Farsi, instead of just being Aryan and located in the Pars (or Fars) province.

And if Alexander was copying Persian military startegies why did he tear all the armies into little pieces and out think every Persian general that was sent against him, I think your viewpoint ios biased somewhat by the fact that Persia was the conquered not the conqueror

I said he utilized aspects of Persian tactics. I didn't mean he directly copied...he certainly used Greek and Macedonian styles to create a great force. However, if it weren’t for his adoption of primarly Persian administrative tactics to run his empire (which the Greeks and Macedonians never possessed because they controlled very little land and completely homogenous people, Greeks even couldn't unite under a single nation, just lived in city states lol) his empire most certainly would have fell apart when he was alive.

Cyrus-
Your main argument re: the history of Persia is complex and often misunderstood, as well as often flat out wrong, is well taken and I partially agree with you. However, when you start saying things like this:

>>>>>>>>>>
[Arabs] had very little culture and no artistic identity
>>>>>>>>>>

or this

>>>>>>>>>>>
...maybe a person could ague that Greece was in fact influenced by Persia, but no person goes there because that would show that Asian cultures were actually superior to Western ones. But no, that's unacceptable
>>>>>>>>>>>

or other similar "derogatory" sounding remarks I've noticed in your posts (particularly the first one), I start to squirm a little and think you're going from legitimate argument territory to "I am better than you" territory. Hopefully you aren't trying to insinuate arabs, or greeks, or turks, or anyone else is somehow "inferior" or less historically important as the Persians.

And wasn't Baghdad Babylonian? As was most of mesopotamia? My memory of the history of the area was of it being very complex, not just Persian/Arab/Greek from right to left but several different ethnicities, for instance the Aryans, the Medians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Arabs from the peninsula, Lydians on the Aegean, Turks inland, basically all sorts of different ethnicities in the middle east/asia minor, so even saying Persia was all "Persians" is a little innaccurate, is it not?

Let me also add that I do recognize where you are coming from, because as half-Tunisian I am also "lumped" into being an "arab" when really people from that area (North Africa) are a variety of different ethnicities, the main one being Burbur.

To anyone else reading this that is interested in history, read "Creation" by Gore Vidal. An excellent book and a great introduction to the history of one of the high points of the Great Persian empire as well as of civilization as we know it.

I am in no way implying that present Arabs are inferior in any way. However, as I am speaking about Arabs BEFORE the Islamic Era. Aka not Iraqis, Syrians, Egyptians, etc. who are "adopted" Arabs. In other words, people who simply switched their language to Arabic and are called "Arabs" because of it. I am speaking of ethnic Arabs (aka Saudis, Yemenis, and other Semitic people from the Arabian peninsula that spoke Arabic), for which it is completely true that they didn't have high culture nor an artistic style in any shape or form. One of the reasons the Koran actually picked up is because it was written in poetry, and for most Arabs they have never seen such a device. And so, they thought it was beautiful. You can look up this stuff historically and you will find the same conclusion. It's a complete fact that Arabs didn't have much in terms of cultural pursuits before Islam.

That second quote was sarcastic...it wasn't meant to be taken seriously

I will come out and say, btw, that when Persians and Medes first settled in Iran they were culturally inferior to Babylonians, Assyrians, and the original Iranian people, the Elamites. They gradually learned and became great in cultural pursuits and still are. It's just that Arabs started 1600 years later.

Baghdad, especially including Ctestphion, the capital of Sassanid Persia, all of them located at least partially in Mesopotamia, were completely Persian. Let me give you the breakdown:

"Bagh" - God, in Middle Persian
"Dad" - to give, in modern Persian

"Baghdad" = "Given by God"

It's thought that it was started up by Parthians, and continued under Sassanids. Even the main designers of Islamic Baghdad, when it was made the capital of the Islamic empire, were Persian. The reason for this little "oversight" is quite simple: Iraq is called "Arab". However, Iraq is actually a mix of ethnic Arabs, other Semite populations (Babylonian, etc.), and Persians. The reason for why Persians were in Mesopotamia (as opposed to Iran) was quite simple: Mesopotamia had water, Iran didn't. Actually it's quite interesting to note that Iran hosted such a large population on very little water supply, as other civilizations had plenty of water from the sites they sprang from (Tigris, Euphrates, Nile, etc.). They basically revolutionized agricultural techniques and canal construction in order to achieve their water supply. However, Mesopotamia was a better area with better water, so Persians gradually moved there.

I appreciate that you know where I come from, and as a result I would like your support concerning this issue . Also, feel free to elaborate on your culture and language. My efforts have been to spread information about Middle Easterners.

right on!!! as a persian i agree with alomst all you say,and btw "Creation" is a great book, i really enjoyed reading it, and coudln't put it down. if you had read my previous posts, i did disagree with him on the Arab thing, it's an arrogance we Iranians carry due to our upbringing in a nationalistic society. heck, the persians think their Turkish, arab, and Kurdish countrymen are somewhat inferrior, or rather all people from rural aras are subjected to such treatment.

p.s. Baghdad was infact persian village (baghdad=given by God) wheather the Inhabitants were all pure persian, thats a rediculous statement.

You don't seem to have a grasp of Arab history before the Islamic Empire. But perhaps I'm wrong, and you can give me plenty of examples of pre-Islamic Art, Architecture, Literature, Entertainment. Or perhaps technological innovations, medical improvements, or theoretical thinking? Even during the Islamic Empire, Iranians hosted by far the majority of famous scholars and governmental workers, and improved the Arabic language singlehandedly. Why couldn't Arabs improve their own language? All of this simply shows that Iranians DID contribute more.

"Pure" persian, maybe not. But if Iranians settled the area, given the fact that people never really moved out or in to other villages, it would be hard to suggest that there was a big mix of people there. Furthermore, from what I have read, people generally consider Baghdad a "Persian" village.

 

[cyrusIII85]

I'm bringing this thread back to it's roots...

 

[Sidhe]

Sorry very interesting do go on guys.

One very good reason why Greece couldn't unite under one banner was because Persia spent huge quantities of money on financing wars between the city states to keep just such a thing from happening, Persia new greece was a threat to it only as a whole.

Alexander was a great military strategist who surrounded himself with the best generals and inspired loyalty bordering on worship. Persia lost to a vastly inferior(size wise) force. I think if you just look at the acievement of the Macedonians on numbers alone you cant fail to be impressed. Military students still learn about alexanders battle tactics to this day. I looked into the history from a completely impartial viewpoint not being Greek or Persian and I'm impressed.

 

[TylerDurdon]

First off, due to the rushing of the game and early problems, it would have been a shame if they had invest more effort on Historical accuracy then the gaming itself leaving it even worst!!! That said, Im no historian but culture stuff are ALWAYS more complicated then what we can say in a single page!!! Many countries are culturally divised but yet a nation of their own.. I think the english empire is a good example brought many time throughout this thread!

Culture just never died... and most of the invaders written down in our history books inspire their own culture with the one they "destroy": invade. Its a fact that Roman were greatly influance by the Greek culture, Mongols conquerors are know to "borrow" architect (sorry for misspelling I'm French living in AMERICA; another good examples of MIX culture) and artist to build wonderfull cities (Samarkland,etc), temples and palaces... Vikings adopt Christianity while mixing it up with their pagan believes (through relics and other artifact)...

If we look at the United States, Canada, well most occidental country, they held inside their bounderies almost every culture on earth... I think its really time to grab everything and share it with each other instead of dividing it in a millions different part. It is part of HUMANITY. OUR humanity!

Another thing.... You see now why SID didnt want to get involve TOO much with religions... the Danish controversy would have happen a couple of month earlier Imagine if Firaxis had included a picture of the prophet... it would had been a GREAT free promotion/publicity: at least a week of riot on every TV station

Anyway, I had a blast reading this thread!

that was my 2 cents, I'm out!!!!

 

[shahreevar]

@cyrus

do you agree that the Iranians in Genreal believe themselves to be superior to other people? Honar Nazdeh Iranian asto bas? yes i take pride in my homeland, and my native culture. and i am somewhat nationalistic. nationalism can be both good and bad. the bad comes out when it becomes racism. Grasshopper-eating arabs? arab dogs? siah sambo? turkeh khar? etc. or when people fro tehran make fun of other persian speaking people. omfg, you are actually speaking dari vari, where as the Afghanis for example speak Dari, the language of Hafiz, Rumi, and Sadi (btw i stole that joke from the comedian Hadi Khorsandi!!)

people need to realize that not all modern iranians are persians, or Aryan. i doubt that after 4000 years of history the Aryan gene pool has remained intact, and pure. my mian problem with yor arguement, or rather my interpretation of arguemnt was that you believe that arabs are inferior to persians. you later said that the pre-islamic arab were inferior. well the poster above me(meisen) has addressed that issue. and fyi, arabic is a rich, powerfull language. it is rich, or rather it became so since it was the sole vehicle for transmitting ideas, stories, and the history of the Arabs.


p.s. to the other readers, i am sorry if you cant understand some of the word i said.

 

[suspendinlight]

No, didn't understand a word (though if I ever had the time, I would like to learn Farsi due to my interest in Persia).

I just wanted to note to cyrus that the Aryans tribes were happily wandering around as nomads in central Asia for several thousand years before arriving in modern day Iran and settling down. During all of this time the Sumerians, Elamites, Hittites, Egyptians, Akkadians, and others had formed complex societies in the Near East and the Aryans were the barbaric invaders. It's a cycle that repeats throughout human history. A nomadic group of "barbarians" infringes on a civilized society eventually destroying it, only the invaders eventually form a civilized society themselves, which is the eventually invaded by another "barbarian" horde. This is in reference to your comment about Arabs and their pre-Islamic culture, and to duly note that the Aryans were not always the "most cultured".

 

[TylerDurdon]

"The US media appears particularly biased and to me there viewpoint is little more than propoganda half the time."

Which Iran are you talking about?
the one where the leader says the holocaust didn't happen?

or this one?

"In a new turn, a prominent Iranian newspaper, Hamshahri, invited artists to enter a Holocaust cartoon competition, saying it wanted to see if freedom of expression - the banner under which many Western publications reprinted the prophet drawings - also applied to Holocaust images. "

Or do you mean the one that is throwing out an INTERNATIONAL nuke
watch group??

Just want to add a little here!!! I'm sure there is a General in the US army inspire by someone like... hmmm lets say American hero General McArthur who just want to Nuke the HELL out of China right about now... OK he is not president and doesnt have much power but that person SURELY exist and could one day have influence over the matter...

Also, the Holocaust thing, its a perfect example of a TABOO subject in our society to ILLUSTRATE the ambiguity of our Rightfully precious freedom of speech... when this thing going to BOOM itself in the international medias, Jews/moralist will react strongly to censure it... they wont burn embassies but they will be angry!!! and more they will be angry, more the people who try to undermine freedom of speech will be right!.. it a kinda political mine(the thing you step on and explode in pieces) more than anything else!

Well, back to the medias; they are ONLY a mean of propaganda, in any country including US, its mostly corporative propaganda (commercials) but also state misinfomation... Aristotle once said something like: "Leaders most lies in order to rules, ordinary people cant stand the truth" and I like to think that he was right on that one!!!

Everything is propaganda... the truth are mostly never known to the point that its relevant to ask ourself if their is such thing as THE Truth (with a big "T"!)

Now I'm really out its way to late!