"Historically Correct Cultural Transitions" - A Mod Synopsis

Krajzen

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So I have been thinking about that subject for a while. The main joy of Humankind comes from cultures changing in exotic, ahistorical ways. But let's be honest, sooner or later everybody thinks about the "historically correct" mode. What if there was also a mode (or rather a mod) simulating the world: making cultures change in "historically correct" ways and maybe even on the Earth map?

The latter question is of course easy to answer if we have a map editor; then we can do a map of Earth and put cultures in appropriate locations. The real tricky thing is the former question.

Here is my request to devs: please give modders the ability to at least restrict choice of newly unlocked cultures depending on the current culture. So, for example, when either human or AI plays as Greeks, they only have a choice to remain Greeks or turn into Byzantines in the medieval era.

Such thing would be excellent for any kind of "historical" game modes, scenarios or mods. Even better if there were more possible conditions unlocking cultures (you can only become x if you are rich), but for now let's just talk about cultural conditions.

Now here is an example of how this could work in practice, if we had a lot of cultures and everything was roughly historically correct. "->" here means "former culture can remain itself or turn into the latter". The last two display more tricky case: Celts in the medieval era may remain themselves or turn into Franks OR English, so there are three choices.

Spoiler :

1) Olmec -> Maya -> Aztec -> Mexico
2) Caral -> Nazca -> Inca -> Peru
3) Zhou -> Han -> Tang -> Ming -> China
4) Harappa -> Maurya -> Gupta -> Mughals -> India
5) Indo - Iranians -> Achaemenids -> Samanids -> Safavids -> Persians
6) Hittites -> Seljuks -> Ottomans -> Turkey
7) Mycenae -> Greeks -> Byzantium -> not sure if Russians would be acceptable :p
8) Etruscans -> Romans -> Venice -> Italy
9) Halstatt -> Celts -> English or Franks -> if English then -> British, if Franks then -> French
10) "Ancient Germania" -> Goths -> Teutons or Norse -> if Teutons then Germany, if Norse then Sweden


However we don't have the Perfect Amount of Fitting Cultures so I have devised an alternate, pragmatic display of how would this work in our current roster of cultures. Some compromises and even a straight nonsense or two had to be made, but as you can see, even now you could sort of make this work.
"Wait what happens if two cultures have the same descendant"
Then the faster one takes it and the slower one has no choice, must remain itself.

Spoiler :

1) Zhou -> Ming, Joseon or Edo -> then depending on choice you unlock: China, Korea or Japan
2) Harappa -> Maurya -> Khmer* -> Mughals -> India
3) Olmec -> Maya -> Aztec -> Mexico
4) Nubia -> Axum -> Ghana -> ?
5) Mycenae -> Greeks -> Byzantium -> Russians
6) Egypt -> Umayyads** -> Ottomans
7) Assyria -> Huns*** -> Mongols
8) Babylon -> Umayyads -> Persians
9) Hittites -> Celts or Goths**** ->
if Celts then (English -> British)
if Goths then (Frankish, Teuton or Norse -> French, German or Swedish)
10) Phoenicia -> Carthage or Rome*****
-> if Rome then (Venice -> Italy)
-> if Carthage then -> Spain

* - cultural heir of India
** - Umayyads due to Islamic Egypt, then Ottoman due to being part of their empire
*** - now this one is obviously a nonsense but I wanted nomads :p
**** - also a nonsense but I had to shoehorn European nations somehow
***** - why Carthage or Rome? To simulate uncertainty of Punic wars result :) and shoehorn more Europeans despite lack of ancient Euro cultures



Of course you can design those transitions in a myriad of ways, arguing what is less wrong, but that's not even the point; that was just an example of wonderful things we could do if we had the simple modding capability to
restrict player's choice of newly unlocked cultures behind certain conditions.

@Catoninetales_Amplitude

:)

I also have to say, I have been experimenting on the subject of "how to divide Earth on 100 - 120 Territories which are balanced and make historical sense" and it has been a lot of fun, I hope we get the map editor at some point.
 
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Nice idea. I would imagine a "Historical TSL Earth" or at least a historical Europe mode in Humankind, if the coding part is viable.

Judging from what we already have - cultures, opendevs - a Historical TSL Europe Scenario seems very likely.

Currently, for other parts of the world, it will certainly rise the problem of missing links or unhistorical culture changes (such as from Zhou to Edo, or from Maya to Aztec). Europe has the least of problems under this setting.
 
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Nice idea. I would imagine a "Historical TSL Earth" or at least a historical Europe mode in Humankind, if the coding part is viable.

Judging from what we already have - cultures, opendevs - a Historical TSL Europe Scenario seems very likely.

Currently, for other parts of the world, it will certainly rise the problem of missing links or unhistorical culture changes (such as from Zhou to Edo).

My line of thinking in the Pragmatic Example was "Okay, obviously in practice we won't get enough cultures for elegant transitions for everybody, but let's at least go by cultural closeness and indirect descendants". Japan and Korea IRL were at first hugely based on Chinese civilization so in game terms they can emerge from earlier Chinese civilization. Also the missing link problem is by far the most problematic in the instance "there is seriously no ancient civilization in this part of the world before 500 BC" which is also present in case of Korea and Japan, they essentially have to emerge from China, unless you wanna design some desperate, plain, token, barely documented "Bronze Age Korea" culture.

The most annoying problem is a lot of European cultures appearing "out of nowhere" in the medieval age, which forces some more or less creative solutions and indirect inspirations ;)

However, a mode which makes like 80% of cultural transitions somewhat historically correct already feels much different than the usual "lol Aztecs from Rome" hilarity.
 
The most annoying problem is a lot of European cultures appearing "out of nowhere" in the medieval age, which forces some more or less creative solutions and indirect inspirations ;)

Well, the game doesn't seem to have a migration system, so you are forced to let them appear out of nowhere.

"Later Cultures raise from some Independent Peoples" would kind of solve this problem - for instance, currently, Sabines, Etruscans, and Scythians are all IPs.
It can also solve the problem of many "missing links", such as Korea and Japan - Gojoseon and Kofun definitely existed, and can be understand as IP.
 
You know what? it does sound interesting, but still seems very restrictive, and looks like it could grow old pretty fast. maybe for a " strict historical game"

BUT

I think if you loosen the reigns a bit something very cool that you could see in a mod, is to take those culture trees, and make it that you can choose from that one AND from your neighboors.

that way you could have games with cultural clusters, maybe Zhou, Myceneans and Phoenician are in one continent, and Olmec, Egypt and Harappan are in another, you could end up with 2 continents with very recognizable cultures without them feeling so linear
 
You know what? it does sound interesting, but still seems very restrictive, and looks like it could grow old pretty fast. maybe for a " strict historical game"

BUT

I think if you loosen the reigns a bit something very cool that you could see in a mod, is to take those culture trees, and make it that you can choose from that one AND from your neighboors.

that way you could have games with cultural clusters, maybe Zhou, Myceneans and Phoenician are in one continent, and Olmec, Egypt and Harappan are in another, you could end up with 2 continents with very recognizable cultures without them feeling so linear

Yeah, there are many possibilities. But first we need the ability to mod in some requirements, restrictions or triggers for the amount of cultures unlocked in a new era.
 
Also, this is my attempt at making a map of Earth divided between Territories making geographical, historical and balanced sense. There is roughly 120 of them. The map would still require enlarging Europe, Middle East, South East Asia, Japan and Korea, while making Siberia, Canada etc smaller - in order to make things balanced properly.

Spoiler :

Swiat3.png
 

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Also, this is my attempt at making a map of Earth divided between Territories making geographical, historical and balanced sense. There is roughly 120 of them. The map would still require enlarging Europe, Middle East, South East Asia, Japan and Korea, while making Siberia, Canada etc smaller - in order to make things balanced properly.

The regions of SAE are more or less in a parallel fashion IRL (as the modern borders suggest) since the mountain ranges there are going north-south.

Japan is usually divided into 2 parts, East (Kanto, Tohoku, and Hokkaido) and West (Kansai, Chugoku, Shikoku, and Kyushu).

It would be so much fun when a proper map editor drop in. (IIRC Cat mentioned on Reddit that currently there are still bugs in map editor which resulted in glitches on the Stadia OpenDev map.)
 
I'd definitely love a Huge Earth map. I think 120 regions is feasible.
 
FYI, the Stadia Opendev map has a bit less than 70 regions: 31 land/continental regions, 6 islandic regions, 29~31 ocean regions.
(Ocean regions can only be revealed though glitches on ship traits so I don't have a full count)
 
Yeah, and I think it was on the smaller side of the map scale.
 
The regions of SAE are more or less in a parallel fashion IRL (as the modern borders suggest) since the mountain ranges there are going north-south.

Japan is usually divided into 2 parts, East (Kanto, Tohoku, and Hokkaido) and West (Kansai, Chugoku, Shikoku, and Kyushu).

Generally speaking land part of the South East Asia is one of those annoying parts when I intuitively want to enable each separate country, but they are simply too small. Well I'd certainly make Burma a separate Territory, but I don't know what to do with the remaining four. My two dominating ideas are either making remaining four one Territory or dividing it between "sort of Vietnam" and "sort of Cambodia/Thailand".

Japan is way too small to divide it further. Generally I have aimed at areas no smaller than 300 thousand square kilometres (Japan, Poland, Italy, Iraq, Levant...) with the exceptions of Korea (200k, although I could enlargen it by adding parts of Manchuria - it was part of some Korean states anyway) and Baltic states (200k, and I still can't decide whether to make them separate province or part of neighbors). And as I said, it's still too small and real map would require making such parts of the world like 2 times bigger while other 2 - 3 times smaller (hello Siberia).

Although area disparities between territories can be solved partially by some territories being fertile and densely packed with stuff, while other territories being largely useless wasteland (hello Siberia).

Generally my biggest headache with this map were:
- How to divide United States, if you have any other ideas they are welcome. I tried really hard to make a separate territory for Missisipi basin (for Missisipi civilization area), but eventually settled on "Union vs Confederacy". Western half was even worse - should Texas be on its own? Or Four Corners? Or California?
- Should land South East Asia be two or more provinces? Honestly now that I look at it, I'd make it two, Vietnam is too small and forced.
- Should Baltic States be separate territory, or divided between Poland, Ruthenia and Finland? Now that I look at it, I'd cut it, it's too crowded here.
- Should Belarus and Ukraine be separate or united? Would that offend Ukrainians? :p
- Biggest by far. Goddamn how to divide Balkans, or rather "the area between Poland, Germany, Greece and Ukraine". Jesus Christ. Should Bohemia, Poland and Slovakia be one territory? Should I recreate Austro - Hungary? Should Romania and Bulgaria be separate? What about Transylvania? What about Serbia? What about United Nations resolutions on Kosovo? How well can I defend myself from Serbian nationalists? Endless torment.

I'd definitely love a Huge Earth map. I think 120 regions is feasible.

I have once asked Catoninetales whether 100 - 120 territories are feasible largest map size and he responded yes, here it's like 117 IIRC, and if we had to scale it down many territories here can be merged. It would make 10 territories per 10 players, or 5 territories per (currently impossible) 20 players, and I think that would be entirely enough.

Generally I think creating Earth divided between territories is more fun and simpler than creating "open Earth" of Civ, I have tried the latter once and lack of boundaries made me go insane regarding balancing everything everywhere.
 
Also, this is my attempt at making a map of Earth divided between Territories making geographical, historical and balanced sense. There is roughly 120 of them. The map would still require enlarging Europe, Middle East, South East Asia, Japan and Korea, while making Siberia, Canada etc smaller - in order to make things balanced properly.


Must remind that the area corresponding to Mesoamerica was the most densely populated region of the Americas by at least two thousand years, it was not surpassed by Eastern USA until the turn of 19th century. Being around 1/40 of Americas area it could had between 1/4 of the whole continent population at 1500. The core Mesoamerica and the influenced periferic area is basicaly the double of Iberia's size, home of city state and chiefdoom federations from complety different language families like Mayan, Utoaztecan, Otomanguean, Totozoquean, Purepechan, Huavean, Xincan, Lencan, Misumalpan, Tequistlatecan and even Chibchan. This region certainly deserve be at least two separated regions, could be easily divided by Tehuantepec isthmus.

If 120 regions are needed you can take the slot of Iceland joining it with Greenland.
 
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