Hit a gharial, got a golden age, tons of free units!? WTF is this!?

[raxo2222]

Apologies if I've insulted you. I have a mounting frustration with people (definitely not just you) who seem unable to read texts and observe pictures/screenshots and understand them fully and correctly, and it was just boiling over.

Well this is what happens if you play with "Start as minor" and "barbarian civ" options.
@Toffer90 adjusted this combined options mechanic.
Its here on SVN 11034.

Now its like this:
Only start as minor civ: you always become major civ on Writing tech
Only barbarian civ: barbarian city can become minor civ and then normal civ depending on randomnes
Both options: barbarians become minor civs, and then minor civs become full fledged civs depending on some randomized variables.
Free units, golden age and gold is reward.

Your screenshot even says "Your achievements have led your people to be considered a true civilization"
This text isn't scaled down in event log by the way.

 

[billw2015]

Apologies if I've insulted you. I have a mounting frustration with people (definitely not just you) who seem unable to read texts and observe pictures/screenshots and understand them fully and correctly, and it was just boiling over.

The way to post a bug is to describe what happened, and ask for explanation or a fix. If you think it is not a bug but a balance issue then you can tell us why you think it is unbalanced, with reasoning.
Notice no part of this involves telling us we are spitting in the face of strategy games, or deriding the people who are trying to help. Also the words please and thank you tend to be appreciated as well, when people are obviously spending their free time to look in to your problem (as well as, you know, writing the entire mod for free).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Apologies if I've insulted you. I have a mounting frustration with people (definitely not just you) who seem unable to read texts and observe pictures/screenshots and understand them fully and correctly, and it was just boiling over.

Apology accepted. I understand frustration very very well.

 

[Yudishtira]

Both options: barbarians become minor civs, and then minor civs become full fledged civs depending on some randomized variables.
Free units, golden age and gold is reward.

Your screenshot even says "Your achievements have led your people to be considered a true civilization"
This text isn't scaled down in event log by the way.

The commit description and a comment in the code suggest this only applies to barb minor civs, not to players, although I can't see any code enforcing that.

I strongly suggest there's no way a player should be getting these units, or the golden age. About the gold, I don't have a strong opinion.

I also strongly suggest that the chance of the player becoming a major civ this early (eg. before Chiefdom/Tribalism) should be a fraction of a tenth of a percent (per check).

 

[Toffer90]

The commit description and a comment in the code suggest this only applies to barb minor civs, not to players, although I can't see any code enforcing that.

I also strongly suggest that the chance of the player becoming a major civ this early (eg. before Chiefdom/Tribalism) should be a fraction of a tenth of a percent (per check).

It was a PPIO change that all minor civs are treated the same with barbarian civ option. You would have to look at the 10722 changes to see when it became like this.

That recent adjustment was only to the factors that decide when a minor civ become a major civ with "barb civ" option was a reaction to Noriad's thread here and that it happened as early as it did.
The minimum limit for it happening, and the chances for it happening when they are met, should be far stricter now; though it may need further adjustments yet if it still happens too early.

I strongly suggest there's no way a player should be getting these units, or the golden age. About the gold, I don't have a strong opinion.

So you would like it to only apply to AI players?
When playing with "barb civ" and "start as minors" then all players will get this random event eventually, but only once.
Building wonders, founding religions, getting more cities and population, and meeting other players that are not minor civs are the big factors that decide when you become a major nation youreself. If you are isolated on a small island you may very well stay a minor nation until medieval era the way the code is now.

 

[billw2015]

So you would like it to only apply to AI players?

Free stuff should only apply to barbs becoming a minor civ I think. Becoming major civ doesn't need a reward, it IS the reward.
But for barbs becoming minor civs they might need something to stop them getting immediately stomped. For me it is quite common to ignore barb cities because they aren't really a threat (they won't spread), but as soon as they become a civ they are a competitor for resources, and thus killing them quickly becomes more attractive.

However maybe it is still fine, and if new minor civs get stomped that is just natural selection! Maybe it should be a setting: new minors and/or majors get reward or not?

 

[Yudishtira]

That recent adjustment was only to the factors that decide when a minor civ become a major civ with "barb civ" option was a reaction to Noriad's thread here and that it happened as early as it did.
The minimum limit for it happening, and the chances for it happening when they are met, should be far stricter now; though it may need further adjustments yet if it still happens too early.

Ok great. Yeah I wouldn't mind if the chance before Chiefdom/Tribalism was basically zero.

So you would like it to only apply to AI players?

Yes I really would. Even the gold, given that it was 600. Two hundred at Monarch (and below?), 100 or less above that (none at Nightmare I hope), might be okay.

Actually it was never intended for AI players, unless they were formerly barb cities. I imagine it could easily ruin a game if your near neighbour - who you've managed to keep at a 0.8 power ratio with despite their half-era tech lead - suddenly doubles in power including a Great General. Please no. This is for civs who are starting from scratch.

 

[Toffer90]

Free stuff should only apply to barbs becoming a minor civ I think. Becoming major civ doesn't need a reward, it IS the reward.
But for barbs becoming minor civs they might need something to stop them getting immediately stomped. For me it is quite common to ignore barb cities because they aren't really a threat (they won't spread), but as soon as they become a civ they are a competitor for resources, and thus killing them quickly becomes more attractive.

However maybe it is still fine, and if new minor civs get stomped that is just natural selection! Maybe it should be a setting: new minors and/or majors get reward or not?

Barbarians becoming minor civs gets a huge bonus when becoming a minor civ, this is a bonus that those who were along since turn 0 will never get.
What I'm saying is that there is no more reason for barb civs and civs emerging from revolutions to get more bonuses when becoming a major civ than for players that were along since turn 0.
So if players that were along since turn 0 should not get a single bonus when becoming a a major civ then why should players that emerged from barbarians or from revolutions get a bonus when becoming a major civ?
Barb civs already got a huge bonus long before they become a major civ so why should they get a second one if it's not a rule that applies equally to all minor civs?

My opinion is that either all minor civs gets the bonus when becoming a major civ or none does.

One can adjust some of the bonuses from becoming a major civ in BUG options, and these settings treat new world minor civs differently than old world minor civs.

The current code does actually give a much bigger bonus to new world civs becoming major civs than old world civs, this is a system that is meant to simulate how the natives of the new world, who could only have emerged from barbarians (else the land mass wouldn't qualify as a new world), ramp up their capabilities when having made contact with enough old world civs. Making them a stronger force to be reconed with, not immidietly when the new world is discovered, but when old world civs have infringed on the new world to a specified amount (lots of BUG options to decide what that amount is).

 

[billw2015]

I think we agree? I don't think there should be any bonus for anyone when going from minor to major, ONLY for barbs becoming minor (edit: and then only maybe, it isn't obvious they should get one, just there is good argument for it from gameplay perspective).

 

[Toffer90]

I think we agree? I don't think there should be any bonus for anyone when going from minor to major, ONLY for barbs becoming minor (edit: and then only maybe, it isn't obvious they should get one, just there is good argument for it from gameplay perspective).

Maybe only new world civs should get bonuses for becoming a major civ?

New world civs are by definition emerged from barbarians.
And they are the whole reasoning behind the bonus in the first place.
They get a much larger bonus when becoming a major civ than old world minors does.

 

[billw2015]

What is the purpose of the bonus? Is it a reward or a defense against other more advanced civs? Because I don't think there is any reason for the former, and with the latter I don't see any point (edit: except in the case of first contact with a major civ late in the game), as the advanced civ might just as easily destroy them when they are minor than wait until they are major. In fact giving a bonus in arms to civs that become major will incentivize killing them before they do that.

 

[Yudishtira]

I think we agree? I don't think there should be any bonus for anyone when going from minor to major, ONLY for barbs becoming minor (edit: and then only maybe, it isn't obvious they should get one, just there is good argument for it from gameplay perspective).

No bonus for anyone going from minor to major - totally agree.

Totally see why barbs becoming minor civs get the rewards - desperately needed, please retain.

And if new world civs have "always" got a big reward for going major, let them keep it. I don't think I've ever played a Start in Old World game anyway.

 

[Toffer90]

What is the purpose of the bonus? Is it a reward or a defense against other more advanced civs? Because I don't think there is any reason for the former, and with the latter I don't see any point (edit: except in the case of first contact with a major civ late in the game), as the advanced civ might just as easily destroy them when they are minor than wait until they are major. In fact giving a bonus in arms to civs that become major will incentivize killing them before they do that.

It's main purpose was to simulate that the natives (minor civs) of the new world (Who simply cannot become major civs before old world major civs settles cities on their landmass) were not a big threat when first discovered by major civs from the old world. But that after some time they will ramp up their aggressiveness towards the newcomers (simulated by them becoming major civs and they getting a large bonus).

The code was expanded to include barbarian civs from the old world too, but they got a very reduced bonus.
In PPIO I didn't see the need for two different rulesets for when and how one becomes major civ to exist when playing with the "barb civ" option and the "start as minor" option so I expanded it to include all minor civs.

If a minor civ is far enough behind the major civs I could see the reasoning to include this same behavior to old world minors, there could be minor civs in the old world that is so isolated that they become a major civ several eras after other old world civs.

An idea is to use the players relative score to influence how big the bonus should be, low relative score means bigger bonus, high relative score could mean no bonus at all.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Any new civ being created either as barbarians becoming a new civ or a colony being given its independence (but not vassals) need to have a two turn golden age so that they can get their Civics and State Religion chosen. Without it they will go into a period of anarchy since the default Civics are the first Civics. I have seen them get over 200 turns of anarchy. This means that they fall apart because they can't build anything and Crime goes rampant. They are a very soft target for barbarians and others without this trivial golden age.

 

[billw2015]

Seems like anarchy calculations are off then if it is even possible to get 200 turns of anarchy, probably we should just fix that problem as well! If it is currently just stacked for all civics that are changing it should instead have diminishing cumulative effect. e.g.:

edit: meant to be a += not = of course!

 

[Toffer90]

Any new civ being created either as barbarians becoming a new civ or a colony being given its independence (but not vassals) need to have a two turn golden age so that they can get their Civics and State Religion chosen. Without it they will go into a period of anarchy since the default Civics are the first Civics. I have seen them get over 200 turns of anarchy. This means that they fall apart because they can't build anything and Crime goes rampant. They are a very soft target for barbarians and others without this trivial golden age.

We are talking about minor civs becoming major civs, they never really need a golden age for that as they would have changed all their civics long before becoming a major civ...

If it is currently just stacked for all civics that are changing it should instead have diminishing cumulative effect. e.g.:

There is a diminishing cumulative effect already in that calculation.
It didn't use to be though, I convinced TB it should be that way a year or two back and he agreed and made it so that selecting multiple civic changes would provide a discount on the anarchy time cost so that it is less than what it would be by doing the civic changes one at a time.

There could be bugs in the calculation though, but I haven't heard about long anarchy times being reported.

 

[Toffer90]

In next SVN only new world minor civs and low scored old world minor civs will get any bonuses when becoming a proper civ. Already on git.

Latest SVN already has the tweak that makes it highly unlikely for any civ to become a major civ before sedentary lifestyle with start as minor and barb civ game options.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't think you could get 200 turns of anarchy time even on the longest gamespeed with the worst scenario now, but perhaps when there was an anarchy penalty being given in EACH city due to high education you might've been seeing that with a lot of highly educated cities. Things have been recalibrated quite a bit there and I haven't seen anything that awful in a while now.

 

[Yudishtira]

Seems like anarchy calculations are off then if it is even possible to get 200 turns of anarchy, probably we should just fix that problem as well! If it is currently just stacked for all civics that are changing it should instead have diminishing cumulative effect.

In early Nanotech, with 90 cities, if I change all categories except Agriculture, I get 55 turns of Anarchy (Eons speed). If I include Agriculture I get 1 turn less.

So not 200, but not something I'm ever likely to do either. Although I wouldn't go so far as to call it a bug.

 

[billw2015]

If I include Agriculture I get 1 turn less.

I would definitely call this a bug. However some kind of "aligned civics" system where certain civic combinations work better together would be quite interesting. e.g. its way more difficult to turn your democracy into a dictatorship if you don't also switch to militarized policing or something (dunno if these are real civics, its just an example).