Hitler??

[kryszcztov]

More censorship, and more censorship... Censorship kills education. Keep Hitler out, and young people won't know him as well as they could. We all know him ? And in 50 years ?

Sorry, same old story here, but Stalin killing millions of Russians is't better than what Hitler did. The only real reason why people here say so is because Stalin killed Slav people (a large minority here, I guess), whereas Hitler focused on Jews and other groups which were living in Western Europe too (well more represented here).

To be short, Hitler stands out as the real Devil because he killed amongst our Western population, and that is what affected us. For a game that will be sold around the world, I don't see why the Western point of view must be emphasized, even if it's an American game. Or Firaxis will create a game that is supposed to embrace the History of Mankind with a biaised view. And don't tell me about different versions in different countries, Civ3 sucked with the language, do you want to add more mess ?

Let Hitler be a German leader for Civ4, if its role in History justifies it. You shouldn't hide what you fear from your eyes. And keeping him out would say that Hitler was bad, and the rest was OK, which is entirely false.

I'll finish it with a simple remark : you can't hate what you don't know.

 

[antonio]

I bleeive that 20 million Russians died and only 15millionChinease .I hope they change the aztec leader Montezuma remember was the one who got them defeated by a ludicrusly smallspanish force and was killed by his own people.Unless of course montezuma is Montezuma I as he was one of the greatest Aztec leaders of all time.I hope Alexander is removed as greek KIng as he was a Macadonion who conquered Greece.Also Cleopatra should be removed and replaced with Ramsees the great.Xerces should be replaced by his father darius a much more able leader who made Persia great and gave Xerces the tools tom form the huge army he used in the failed Greek campaign even so he couldnt win.Also for Rome could it be more pecific it just says ceaser all the emporors were called Ceaser hopefuly there will be some chioce with them between say Agustus and Gius.Also Russia can we pleace have Peter the great instead of Cathrine.As for England Churchill or Cromwell.On the matter of Hitler I hope they put him in but with another leader option such as Fredrich II of prussia.

 

[gealai]

I think the worst act of genocide in history was that which occured against the Chinese by Genghis Kahn. Perhaps that can be overlooked because he was a barbarian and because it occured so long ago. But Even England's Queen Elizabeth in the 16th century was responsible for acts of genocide during her time (during the second Desmond war 1579-1583).

 

[ComradeDavo]

Obviosuly (as has been mentioned) Hitler would be the leader of Germany in any World War 2 scenario. That is fine. In fact, I hope there is a WW2 scenario

Otherwise, I wouldn't want to see Hitler as the leader of the Germans in the normal game. Why? Well, I think that is basically showing the Germans as Nazi's. The Hitler peroid was just one of many in the Germanic people's history, and I don't think it would be wise to have Hitler as the leader because that would focus attention firmly on that Nazi peroid. It's negative sterotyping.

 

[NP300]

Again, with the sensitive people....... I say YAY for putting him in, since he IS a historical figure, regardless of what he did during his life. Unless you want everybody do rewrite history to wipe him all out.. Hey I hear some guy wrote a book where he exposes the holocaust was a huge fraud, and that it never happened! lol

The gas chambers are a product of Allied and Soviet war propaganda. Scientific studies of the "gas chambers" have proven this beyond any reasonable doubt. The concentration camps, however, were real and nobody claims otherwise. The people that died in the camps died primarily from typhus epidemics. It is quite interesting how people believe the victor's version of history without asking any questions, particularly when it should be obvious that Allied governments have vested interests in demonizing the Axis. Isn't doubting and questioning authority what democracy is supposed to be about?

Anyone interested can do a google search for "dissecting the holocaust". I don't want to get banned for linking.

 

[Palantir30]

True, gas showers were a late introduction to the concentration camps, and they are responsible for only a portion of the deaths, but I think you're going a little too far down the line of saying they never existed.

And we're all going a little too far down the line of throwing dirty laundry about.

Hitler as a German leader should be fine, as long as Germany is one of those Civs which get a choice as to their leader, Bismark or Hitler for example.

Hitler alone would be unacceptable, much like Cromwell alone would be unacceptable for England. That one leader doesnt adequately reflect the entirety of the flavor of the Civilization.

Besides, as someone else said, you can always Mod him in if you want him...

 

[oldStatesman]

The gas chambers are a product of Allied and Soviet war propaganda. Scientific studies of the "gas chambers" have proven this beyond any reasonable doubt.

Name your references please . Links to the 'scientific" studies please. Statements like these need proof.

See what the mere mention of Hitler does? It's a really bad choice if for marketing reasons only - I doubt whether Firaxis will include that madman.

 

[Vael]

Yes, oldStatesman is correct. The fact that an article simply mentioning that he MIGHT be in the game is enough to warrant such a hot thread means that the developers won't touch it with a 40 foot pole.

And before a mod shows up to close the thread, the discussion is getting a bit off-topic...

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Two problems:

1) Legal issues in Germany and some more European countries.
The rulings are pretty much "If someone feels offended, it'll get banned". Swastika or Hitler in a history book - no problem. In entertainment, you may face problems.
For example, that StarTrek episode with Cpt. Kirk in a SS uniform may not ve aired. The Voyager episodes with some aliens in SS uniforms may.
Now, Civ is a pretty prominent game. The first article outside a computer mag with Hitler killing Russian Slaves will result in a ban.
I'm not saying I agree with that ruling, but I don't see why Firaxis should take that risk?

2) Why should Hitler be the German leaderhead at all?
He ruled a mere 12 years, and at the end of his reign, Germany was almost levelled and not even half as big than at start.
Temu for sure wasn't a nice guy - but the Mongols did benefit from him. Even France undisputedly benefitted from Napoleon, although he was defeated.
And I for one was always against Mao, btw.

I find it pretty disgusting when some people with a weird Hollywood derived view of Germany seriously discuss Hitler.
We for sure can find that leader who caused the most dmage for any given country. What about Caligula for Rome? Nixon for America?
I can see the humor in this - but, would anyone serously suggest that?

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: While interesting, this belongs in the history forum. Back to the topic, or take it to World History.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Own]

I think that Hitler shouldn't be the leader of Germany, it sorta says "Hitler was the greatest leader of Germany." I'm sure Germans would like to forget Hitler and not be recognized by him. Unfortunately, when some people think of Germany they think of Hitler. I'm sure all German civers (and all Germans who hear about this for that matter) would highly oppose that. It could stir up lots of controversy.

The Greeks shouldn't have Alexander the Great, all he did was conquer them! Greek leader should be Pericles.
The French should have Charlemagne.
America should have Franklin D. Roosevelt, who IMO was greatest president ever.
China's shouldn't be a communal dictator! How about an emperor of one of China's many dinasties?
British leader should be either Churchill or Kink Harold.
Russian leader should either be Peter the Great or Catherine the Great.

 

[päällikkö]

More censorship, and more censorship... Censorship kills education. Keep Hitler out, and young people won't know him as well as they could. We all know him ? And in 50 years ?

I'll finish it with a simple remark : you can't hate what you don't know.

Having Hitler in Civ is no way of education. You learn nothing by having his name and face in a game without any further explanation. By the way, in Germany there is no censorship concerning Nazi atrocities. These days you can see one or two reports about different aspects of the Third Reich every day on TV. In our schools they keep talking about it again and again. You can still visit the gas chambers here (although there seems to be "scientific" evidence they did not exist at all ).

But it is not allowed to use certain Nazi symbols in a glorifying way. A game that allows you to win by conquering the world as Hitler himself and replaying his atrocities (for example by killing enemy population) will almost certainly be unacceptable by German authorities. And not only by authorities. IMHO almost all German players would feel at least uneasy and uncomfortable if they were forced to play as a German Leader Hitler when they play "home civ".

 

[Own]

I think it would be awesome if Hitler was in Civ 4 - There would be something amusing about seeing an enraged Hitler is full Nazi uniform demanding a peace treaty as your troops surround Berlin.

Hitler never surrendered, he killed himself then Berlin surrendered.

 

[Civrules]

That UGO article did not sound professionally written at all. They probably just took some of the info from the recent magazines. That said, I don't know how reliable it is, given the fact that Firaxis (I'm saying this again) does not like to add controversial aspects.

And again, please get back on topic.

 

[kryszcztov]

@ Own : I suggest you read more about History. Charlemagne wasn't Emperor of France, nor of the French. He was Emperor of the Franks, technically a Germanic tribe. His Empire was eventually cut in three parts in 843, the western part becoming France afterwards. The only guy who can fully represent France in its height is Louis XIVth, the Sun King (says it all).

@ päällikkö : Somehow "Age of Empires" got many American guys to learn more about Antiquity (I read this somewhere). And I know that game sharpened my own interest in this part of History. I can't imagine that Civilization doesn't give some people the will to learn more about History. Getting Hitler in Civ would result in a more accurate description of what History is. But don't get me wrong : I'm far from believing that Hitler is the best choice for the German leader. Chancellor Bismark has my choice, even if he wasn't the Emperor, he is the craftman behind Germany's all time height. But in a WWII scenario, who would you put at the head of Germany ? Is it the reason why there hasn't been any official "WWII in Europe" scenario yet ? And I was talking about censorship in games like Civ.

 

[Philips beard]

I don't think it is possible to have leaders for every nation in each era - or whom would you tell the leader of the Babylonians in nowadays?!?

The modern leader for Babylon should be Saddam Hussein!

 

[Xen]

The gas chambers are a product of Allied and Soviet war propaganda. Scientific studies of the "gas chambers" have proven this beyond any reasonable doubt. The concentration camps, however, were real and nobody claims otherwise. The people that died in the camps died primarily from typhus epidemics. It is quite interesting how people believe the victor's version of history without asking any questions, particularly when it should be obvious that Allied governments have vested interests in demonizing the Axis. Isn't doubting and questioning authority what democracy is supposed to be about?

Anyone interested can do a google search for "dissecting the holocaust". I don't want to get banned for linking.

Its quite well known that what you speak is your own revisionist histoy created by nazi sympathizers; speak your falseitudes elsewhere; here thier ar epeople with the proper historical knowldge to refute you dead in yoru tracks with the truth of the matter.

 

[Evie]

The only guy who can fully represent France in its height is Louis XIVth, the Sun King (says it all).

Or the Cardinal of Richelieu.

Sure, Louis XIV ruled while France was at the top, but it was Richelieu that brought France there to begin with. Louis XIV stood tall, but only because he was standing on the shoulders of giants.

And I know, Richelieu was never technically the French chief of state. Neither was Bismarck in Germany ; both, however, where the de facto rulers, and the "great unifiers".

 

[Communisto]

civ3 was full of not-very nice people at the helms of nations; Lincoln (genocidical to aboriginals), Elizabeth (ask the irish, we wont hesitate to answer), Mao (obvious reasons), Shaka (had millions of his own people killed) and Caesar (killed thousands of people)

the only reason people are squeemish about hitler is because of the recentness of WWII, I would have no problem, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Philips beard]

Or the Cardinal of Richelieu.

Sure, Louis XIV ruled while France was at the top, but it was Richelieu that brought France there to begin with. Louis XIV stood tall, but only because he was standing on the shoulders of giants.

And I know, Richelieu was never technically the French chief of state. Neither was Bismarck in Germany ; both, however, where the de facto rulers, and the "great unifiers".

Richelieu should only be the french main advisor, standing behind the king, with an evil grin in his face!

The same way Bismarck should not be the german leader, but Hitler or one of the monarch rulers of a united Germany, like Wilhelm I or II!


By the way! Why haven't anyone suggested Margret Thatcher as the english ruler? She was great!